The Defenders-only Discussion Post!

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The Defenders Prompt Post

Talk about the Defenders! Speculate, discuss, squee and debate. There's a thread for each episode so you can discuss what you've watched so far without being spoiled for future episodes - click on top level view to see only the first comment in each thread and stay spoiler-free.

Anon commenting is not mandatory for this post. Playing nice is always mandatory.

Comments

Defenders OT4 headcanons/predictions/shippy moments

[(Anonymous)]

For others who ship the Defenders OT4, who do you think will get together first? How will they decide to broaden it to all four members? What were the shippiest moments in the show?

Defenders Post-Series Gift Exchange

[(Anonymous)]

For anyone who is eyeballing some prompts they'd love to see filled and wants to write something back...

http://archiveofourown.org/collections/defenders_gift_exchange/profile

Sign-ups run all this week from today until September 4th. Gives everyone that long weekend to remember and do it.

Minimum word count is only 500 words. :)

What the hell happened to Father Lantom?

[(Anonymous)]

Am I the only one who thinks that the writing of Father Lantom suddenly took a spectacular drop? He used to be this no-nonsense priest who could always be trusted to call Matt out on his smokescreens.

Now he's suddenly spewing pseudo-Biblical bullshit that even Matt doesn't understand, and his scene is only there to tell us even more plainly that Matt was lying when he said he didn't miss his old life (like we didn't know that), and that he misses Electra (like we didn't know that).

What the fuck?

Re: What the hell happened to Father Lantom?

[(Anonymous)]

I thought it was fine. Lantom knows what Matt won't admit: That he hasn't moved on since Elektra and he's afraid to, and that's informing his actions (lying to Karen, trying not to be Daredevil, etc). So Lantom's advice is as follows: "It's okay to move on. Elektra will not be mad at you." Matt is afraid to open his heart to Jesus because he feels he's failed Elektra and not worthy of divine mercy; Lantom is reminding him that he is, and he should.

Re: What the hell happened to Father Lantom?

[(Anonymous)]

I loved that scene. Priests aren't there to try to uncover new facts, and Lantom has been there to state plainly, because Matt needs to have things hammered into him (sounds dirty, I'm so sorry) so he can't dodge away from it. He needs the absolution and acceptance a priest can give him, but if you let him, he'll go on believing he's The Worst and doesn't deserve forgiveness. He wants it, and Father Lantom kind of gently forces that on him. Or at least that's how I see them. It's not about what we know as the audience, it's about what Matt's struggling with and needs to accept.

Bad writing in the Defenders

[(Anonymous)]

As the anon who wrote the comment on Father Lantom, I hearby commit this thread to complaining about all the bad writing we got in Defenders. Let's face it, we all had moments when we just wanted to scream at the writers, because a scene, line or idea was so *explicitly bad*.

Anyone wants to recall these fond memories?

Re: Bad writing in the Defenders

[(Anonymous)]

Why didn't Stick kill Danny earlier? It seems like an obvious solution.

Re: Bad writing in the Defenders

[(Anonymous)]

Luke getting up so fast after Madame Gao shot him in the head. That bugmed me cause he was out of it just for a bit but he should've stayed down

Re: Bad writing in the Defenders

[(Anonymous)]

Stick was there for virtually no reason, and his character served little to no purpose. He also died for no reason.

Re: Bad writing in the Defenders

[(Anonymous)]

Shoving Madam Gao down several pegs just to graft some gravitas onto Alexandra was some real bullshit. Finally got to see more of the magnificent Madam Gao after the awesome mysteriousness in Daredevil and now she's playing second fiddle? For real?

Also, why was she American? In the comics, the Hand was founded in 1588, and in the shows, it's implied it's so old that records of its founding barely exist. It vastly predates America.

While Alexandra was done really, really well and I like her (Sidelining Madam Gao was unnecessary even) the fact that she's American really undermines her legitimacy re: being part of the Hand for me.

Why is the Hand so multicultural anyway? Bakuto is a weenie (Much like the Iron Fist) and they never bothered to inform us much at all about Sowande. So what's the justification for it not being a terrifying Asian clan of ninjas? And like, that's the other thing. Nobody but Madam Gao displayed real prowess. SHE was scary. SHE had goddamned telekinesis. What exactly did Sowande do other than having cliche African mercenaries? (Also: Give the black guy the pimp outfit, really? I was hoping it was something from the comics but I can't find anything...) What did Bakuto do other than creep on Colleen?

If they got some really fantastic actors and well-fleshed-out parts to fill those two fingers (Alexandra manages to do so) it might not have been a big deal, but as it is they feel out of place.

How did word of Kun-Lun even GET to South America back then...?

I just can't get over how lame and wasted The Hand was in this. We didn't even get one single creepy setpiece like the scene where Matt found a bunch of slaves being drained of blood in Daredevil. Surely an organization capable of that should have MORE creepiness in store when they finally get into the heart of it, not less. Elektra only barely counts considering we already know about Nobu and the mechanism (more or less) that resurrected him. SIGH. Dragon bones my ass!

Re: Bad writing in the Defenders

[(Anonymous)]

Did this show seriously fucking expect me to believe that Jessica was able to tail Matt and snap photos of him without him knowing?

Re: Bad writing in the Defenders

[(Anonymous)]

Do they all print money in their spare time or something? Coleen left her dojo for the life of adventure, but she at least has a Very Rich Boyfriend. Fine. But what about the others?

- Claire hasn't had a job for what seems like at least a year now. She's doing just fine, despite the fact that *her* boyfriend is spending most of his time in various prisons.

- Jessica has been avoiding her own clients since the mess with Killgrave, which must be a few months ago at least. Yet somehow, rent still isn't a problem. I guess she earns enough to save up half a year worth of rent, groceries and alcohol money while also drinking her weigh in whiskey?

- Matt is happily working "pro bono". He has no intention of changing that anytime soon. And the fact that he doesn't get paid by *any* of his clients, and apparently hasn't been since the dissolving of Nelson&Murdock, doesn't seem to weigh on his ability to live in a loft and pay for his, um, everything at all.

I know money is almost never a problem in tv, but this is ridiculous.

Re: Bad writing in the Defenders

[(Anonymous)]

So a building in the middle of Manhattan gets leveled with randomly placed explosives, and there is no collateral damage?

Re: Bad writing in the Defenders

[(Anonymous)]

Just HOW do you pull off the police never filing any charges when not only you have people explicitly and quite publicly disregard the law, first by running away from a precinct and then by *blowing up a building*...

...but also, you know, the blind man they were suspected of kidnapping is still missing, and might actually be dead.

Defenders Awards 2017

[(Anonymous)]

(Crossposted to devilofmidtownwest.tumblr.com)

Best Scene

When Karen is being super patronizing to Matt and he tells her to suck it

Worst Scene

Really, any featuring only Danny and Colleen

Best Fight

Luke vs. Danny

Worst Fight

Danny vs. Elektra (the first time)

Best Group Fight

Hallway at Midland Circle

Worst Group Fight

Parking Garage at Midland Circle where the Hand just bailed so the plot could go on

Saddest Fake Death

Matt

Saddest Real Death

Stick

Death I Should Have Seen Coming a Mile Away

Alexandra (When will I learn?)

Amount that Marvel Needs to Dial Back the “I need you to tell me what’s going on/You wouldn’t believe me if I told you” Speeches

1000%

Villain I Rooted for the Most

Madame Gao

Disappointment (But Not Surprise) that Stick Failed to Kill Danny

High

Practicality of Stick’s Decision

Also High

1 Time I Cheered at the Screen

When Misty finally got her arm cut off (Sorry Misty)

Biggest Tease

Maggie

Biggest McGuffin

Dragon skeletons?!?

Weirdest Scene

Murakami kills a bear abroad and then guts it in a Manhattan high rise apartment

Fate of Kun’lun

After 21 hours of Iron Fist-related material, still unknown

Best Mom

That murdered kid’s mom

Worst Mom

Alexandra and her first daughter

Best Dad

Jack Murdock (wow there’s a real lack of dads on this show)

Worst Dad

Stick (but he owns it)

Most Inexplicable Filming Location

Elektra’s burial plot in a Jewish graveyard

Most Inappropriate Image to a New Yorker

A tall office building in Manhattan exploding, burning, and then collapsing on itself

All I Have to Say About That

This time it WAS an inside job

Seconds That It Takes People to Realize Danny Rand is a Bitch Ass Punk

5

People Committing Suicide in Front of Jessica?

Of Course

Best Non-Defender Defender

Colleen Wing

Best Monologue

Matt talking to the kid in a wheelchair

Worst Monologue

Bakuto talking to Colleen (all of the times really)

Lovable Defenders Most Cool with Watching Someone Get Decapitated

All of them, apparently

Least Blood

Sowande

Newest Accent on an Old Character
British Elektra

How Easy It is to Kill the Five Fingers of the Hand

Super easy it seems like

Sword I Wish Elektra Had Chosen

The Final Fantasy VII buster sword that she walked right past

Times I said, “Nope, Nope, That’s Not Correct” About Something Asian

Only three!

Soviet Russia’s Biggest Mistake

Building Chernobyl Reactor #4 over dragon bones. Call before you dig!

Thought I Feel Most Guilty About

“Wow, Elden Henson’s got a lot of acne scars.”

Best Bender

Madame Gao (Earth/Metal)

Calmest (and Therefore Most Boring) Talk Radio Host

Seriously how does Trish even have a show?

New York-based “People with Abilities” That Remained Uncontacted

The Avengers

Best Place in New York to Spend Multiple Days without Food, Sleep, or a Change of Clothes and Still Look Fabulous

The Harlem Police Precinct

Most Inaccurate Fact about New York

“Hey, at least the rent is cheap.”

Re: Defenders Awards 2017

[(Anonymous)]

I laughed my ass off at all of this. However...

The "the rent is cheap" thing was from what I got out of it intentionally a joke about how irl it isn't and calling attention to the fact that MCU NYC is cheap because of things like dragon fossil-related earthquake risk. Which is one of the funniest jokes in the series, really.

And honestly... if NYC in the real world did get destroyed or put you at risk or have as much crime as in the Marvel Universe? I suspect that cheap rent and low property values would be one result. In addition to reduced city serviced since the city would always be teetering on a 70's style brink of bankruptcy just trying to provide constant disaster relief and continual rebuilding of neighborhoods.

Friends and enemies and Matt

[(Anonymous)]

A friend pointed out that Matt offered to help Frank kill the Blacksmith in s2, and Frank shoved Matt off the boat to keep him from doing it. Frank took the choice away from Matt but he also saved Matt from himself. He at least saved Matt's soul and he definitely saved his life later, too.

In the Defenders, Luke, Jessica, and Danny allow Matt to make a terrible but heartfelt decision to stay and try to talk Elektra around (who makes sure Matt can't leave her), nobody intervenes, and Matt dies.

Meanwhile, Matt's best friends, Karen and Foggy, are trying to get Matt to leave DD in the dust but Matt's miserable and guilty and lying about everything.

Y'all, the merciless serial killer, Frank Castle, has done more for Matt Murdock/DD than the heroic Defenders, the other serial killer Elektra, and Karen and Foggy all combined? That's an oversimplification but I can't stop thinking about this. Matt and Frank aren't even friends! Did the show do this on purpose? Matt made his choice to talk to Elektra, but now I'm really confused about whether Matt should be allowed any agency as DD, can he be trusted to keep himself alive when he's out there alone, does dying change him on some level so he's more careful now, or does he need a keeper? I hate to think of Matt being controlled by anyone, but looking back at s2, he really did benefit from having Frank around. I'm really curious what Frank will say about Matt being dead, though. If he'll care at all.

Re: Friends and enemies and Matt

[(Anonymous)]

"Matt offered to help Frank kill the Blacksmith in s2"

That's true but Matt didnt want to do it in the first place, he said he was gonna do it Frank's way just to help the guy feel good but also his "im jot killing anynone" policy ended the day the hand "killed" Elektra. He went after Nobu and went for the kill. In the Defenders he doesnt even hesitate when it coems to killing the people still inside the building (tho they are all bad guys) Unlike Luke who was the only one not on board with the plan.

I think Matt has changed. He understands that if killing if what it takes to end soemting terrible after trying and trying the right way. He will do it. He is not Frank but Matt went already there...

"Meanwhile, Matt's best friends, Karen and Foggy, are trying to get Matt to leave DD in the dust but Matt's miserable and guilty and lying about everything. "

It's wrong, what Karen and Foggy are doing it's wrong but as we got from the show it was Matt who told them he was gonna stop being DD after the whole Hand mess and the three of them knew that was a lie, they just decided to go with it. Matt felt guilty, Karen wanted the "old" Matt back and Foggy wanted his friend as he has said many times. The three of them are toxic to each other but they still feel the need to be together. That's why i feel that DD is the most interesting Marvel Netflix show when it comes to friendship. We don't have the supportive friends we have in the rest of the shows. Everyone here needs to realize of their own mistakes and accept what is hapenning and i hope we get to that soon...

"In the Defenders, Luke, Jessica, and Danny allow Matt to make a terrible but heartfelt decision to stay and try to talk Elektra around (who makes sure Matt can't leave her), nobody intervenes, and Matt dies. "

I have to say this cause this is what i felt after i saw the show. As good as Matt and Jessica interactions were, as good as Matt's interactions with all the defenders team were. They didnt care if he lived or not. Luke said it. He felt bad for Matt and those who he left behind but he was glad it was him and not Jessica... and That's a a very appropiate reaction cause they only knew Matt for two days. They took his advice and are working for the city to be a better place but they didnt really understand him. Jessica might have but i doubt it...

I really hate the wait for DDS3 cause i need to know what is going to happen with our main three and what are the consequences of Matt ebing gone...

[(Anonymous)]

So was anyone else disappointed at how underutilized superstrength was? I haven't seen Jessica Jones yet (Suicide triggers my OCD HARD) so I don't know if the show was different or not, but I was expecting dudes to be flying tens of feet left and right from single punches.

People like JJ and Luke shouldn't be struggling with street level grunts!

[(Anonymous)]

Madame Gao have Jessica and Luke a run for their money in that departnent tho she was doing it with her mind

The earthquake

[(Anonymous)]

The first earthquake is super destructive, but I thought the idea was if they mined the dragon bones from under NYC then the whole city would fall, but they hadn't even reached that room until late in the season. So what caused the first earthquake? I know it's the Hand, but is it from them mining up to the door with the seal? Matt and Jessica tell Luke the digging had stopped, so I was confused if that first earthquake happened when the Hand were still digging?

Re: The earthquake

[(Anonymous)]

From what I can tell, they mined for dragon bones to bring Elektra back.

Danny Rand, Iron Fist

[(Anonymous)]

I know Iron Fist s1 is considered a fail and there's been so much negativity surrounding the show and the character, but do you guys think Danny has been improved in Defenders? To me, he seems better with an ensemble cast, tbh. I was largely meh about Iron Fist after s1, too, but I'm warming up to him after Defenders.

There have been rumours about DD s3 going in a serial killer/ return to grounded criminals direction, and it sounds like they're done with the Hand for now, but Iron Fist is a more mystical show so maybe the Hand will show up in IF2? Maybe Elektra and Gao might show up on his show in s2? Or Stick if he's resurrected? If the individual shows are allowing crossovers now, is there something you guys want to see in Iron Fist s2?

Re: Danny Rand, Iron Fist

[(Anonymous)]

I understand IF was not the best show but for me it was faster and better than Luke Cage tho the villains in Luke Cage were outstanding Mariah is a godess! Go woman go!

For IF s2 i hope to get more Flashbacks related to his time in K'un-Lun for us to understand how mystical and magical the place really is.

What is even happening with Karen

[(Anonymous)]

I have to ask, does anybody understand Karen anymore? I see a lot of emotional love and hate postings about her but all the supporting arguments are full of assumptions about her motivations. This isn't like with Matt where we get to see his whole life's story on the show, we know everything that was done to him and we have to suffer alongside him. At least we can understand him because we're told and shown what he's about. But with Karen, we're not told or shown anything. And whatever they have, they keep editing it. Karen's backstory was one thing in Daredevil season 1, they changed it for DD season 2, and now in Defenders it's like she's changed again? Or her choices aren't lining up with what's come before. Idgi. There is no consistency to this character. What are we supposed to do with this?

Re: What is even happening with Karen

[(Anonymous)]

The thing about Karen is that I honestly feel like she's torn between two wildly different extremes: her attraction or approval of violence/vigilantiism with Frank and Matt, and now in the Defenders she's swung around to firmly being anti-vigilantes for Matt, because she's thinking that it destroyed his life. I mean, in DDS1 she was pro-Daredevil very much, and in S2 she seemed to get enamored with Frank while realizing how fucking dangerous he and Matt are by the end of the season. So she's very mercurial?

What makes a good villain?

[(Anonymous)]

According to the fans, the great villains of the show are: Killgrave, Wilson Fisk, Mariah and Shades, Cottonmouth, Madam Gao, Alexandra. More or less in that order, I think.

Full agreement on Fisk. Madam Gao, too. Tying her into the Hand story lines had done her zero favors, but she's still a great character. I agree that Alexandra had potential, though I think I may be looking at different aspects than most people.

Now Killgrave, no. Had he been made into a flesh-and-blood person, he would be terrifying, but he hadn't. He's paper thin. Even getting his full backstory doesn't change that, because the backstory is just as cartoonish and out of shape as the character itself.

Cottonmouth was just boring. He was this ridiculous stereotypical black guy who menacingly sits around with a cigar in his mouth, and is black and menacing.

Mariah has a bit more going on for her, but that character was far more interesting *before* she "embraced her legacy", or whatever.

Shades mostly just seems like a semi-well developed plot crutch to me.

So, how come? What is it about those characters that you see, but I don't? What makes a great character and a great villain according to this fandom, and/or in your personal opinion?


An appeal to humanity: Don't kill me. The fact that I don't love some of the popular characters is not meant as a personal offence to anyone.

Re: What makes a good villain?

[(Anonymous)]

I find Kilgrave so terrifying I couldn't watch Jessica Jones because of it. He's extremely true to life in how actual abusive men behave and think, and his power makes him even more terrifying because of it. I mean, this is a guy who can literally make you do whatever he wants--and he wants to rape and torture and kill. That's terror.

I also really loved Mariah a lot, partially because she's such an interesting and complex character. She has this backstory where she's tried to rise above her roots in perpetuating a cycle of inequality, poverty, and crime, and she struggles to balance her family obligations with clawing her way away from them. The fact that she ends up killing Cottonmouth and that was her start to villainy--her essentially sinking down to their level--makes her much more tragic and multifaceted than if she'd always been fine with crime or if she'd never tried to be a good person, or as much of one as a skeezy politician can be. She really believes in lifting up Harlem while preventing gentrification, even though she's also holding herself apart from more 'ordinary' people in Harlem itself (she lives in a brownstone, is very rich, is powerful and exceptionally well-educated, and is noticeably not connected emotionally with normal people basically at all).

Shades is basically Wesley, tbh. He's just got a better sense of things.

Fisk actually seems like kind of a bad villain to me, because he alternates between being fucking terrifying (him running the prison, decapitating a dude with a car door) and hilariously cartoonish (him being too socially awkward to effectively run a mafia, him looking like a toddler in a onesie when he tries to threaten Frank Castle). Madame Gao is sort of super orientalist--a literal dragon lady who does kung fu poses and sells heroin and is only vaguely sympathetic. I think Alexandra was a much better villain than Gao, because she had a very clear motive for going nuts and forming the Hand, and because she was very enjoyably badass and also creepy as shit with her Elektra brainwashing.

Danny's control

[(Anonymous)]

In Defenders, Colleen is bleeding right in front of Danny and he doesn't heal her. Why? Is this still about Danny supposedly not having a handle on his abilities or do his healing abilities not heal physical damage, only poisons?

Luke Cage: what's up with Luke's brother's colored Bible thing?

[(Anonymous)]

So I know this isn't strictly Defenders, but it's about Luke, and it seems a better idea to ask here than the other discussion post.

Can someone please explain to me why the hell did Luke's friend/enemy/brother/whatever have a Bible full of pieces of text highlighted in different colors? What's up with that, exactly?

Re: Luke Cage: what's up with Luke's brother's colored Bible thing?

[(Anonymous)]

Good question. Some people tag passages with different colors for reference, but idk if it was supposed to have a specific meaning for Luke's brother. I think I lost focus on Luke Cage towards the end with his brother and a lot of stuff stopped making sense to me, but that might have only been me. It couldn't hold my concentration so I still have a lot of questions I never bothered to ask. I wonder how much of Defenders will actually affect LC s2.

Anyone here watching The Tick?

[(Anonymous)]

I was hoping for something more diagnostic and "meta" - what with the main superhero being named "Superion", and the main bad guy tellingly named "Terror" (but that's a coincidence, it seems) - but it's kinda fun anyway.

Did Matt have to stay behind?

[(Anonymous)]

Did Matt really need to stay behind to deal with Elektra? Something tells me that the heroes could have easily come up with a plan where one of them didn't have to remain down there in the pit while the others went back up the elevator.

Re: Did Matt have to stay behind?

[(Anonymous)]

He clearly stayed done there, because he wanted to. I think they knew that was his choice and they didn't care enough to try and change his mind.