The Defenders-only Discussion Post!

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The Defenders Prompt Post

Talk about the Defenders! Speculate, discuss, squee and debate. There's a thread for each episode so you can discuss what you've watched so far without being spoiled for future episodes - click on top level view to see only the first comment in each thread and stay spoiler-free.

Anon commenting is not mandatory for this post. Playing nice is always mandatory.

Comments

(frozen comment) To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

I watched some of Iron Fist, mostly the end, and I'm not about to watch the first few episodes/Iron Fist: Businessmen Behaving Incompetently just to figure this out, so can someone please tell me if there's anything at all that even registers the fact that, if Danny went away when he was ten, he didn't go to school past fifth grade? Like...why did they even let him into the company without his having a college education? Or a high school education? Or a middle school education? And is there any explanation for how Danny is somehow past a fifth grade level in reading and math? I mean, maybe they taught some kind of math in K'un Lun (do they show him at some kind of school?), but if they did intensively teach reading...why would it have been in English?

Also, where did he learn to drive? (I know that this one isn't explained.)

I know that you can explain away a lot with He's Really Rich, but come on.

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

We all asumef (me included) that the monks tought him how to read and stuff...
Danny was part of the company cause he owns 51% of teh company. Ward told him eh didnt knew anything about the company and he wanted to buy his part of it but Danny said no. In the end he is still part of the company but Ward is the one in charge... Danny comes when he just sees fit...

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I figured there would've been some kind of schooling, but I'm just not sure exactly how well a K'un Lun education would translate to the real world/New York City in 2017. I mean, the curriculum must have been different. And again, I'm just not sure why the heck they would be teaching anyone to read or write in English. Also, it seems like the kind of society where there would be scholars who wrote and so on. Math probably would've been easier, though, or at least arithmetic would've been. And to be fair, a lot of people in the U.S. get by at a fifth grade reading and/or math level, and if Danny was advanced, he could very well have been at a higher level by the time he left...his dimension. Though he'd probably be kinda rusty by the time he got back, but clearly he's also a quick enough learner, since he did figure out how to drive. Sort of.

But the thing that gets me is also the lack of formal education AND being allowed to play a major part in a business, making actual financial decisions that impact the real world. He doesn't even have a high school degree. Even if he has the equivalent of a high school education (which, I mean, he could, it's not like the United States has the best high schools in the world or anything), he doesn't have a diploma. And he's certainly never gone to business school.

Plus owning 51% of the company shouldn't negate the fact that there are still a lot of other people invested in the company, and there's still a board, which could likely vote him out as a major player in the actual company if the Rand Corporation is reasonable and requires a majority of the board/shareholders/I don't even know but I saw them, man, they were there and they clearly voted Joy and Ward back into the company, and also somehow Danny because apparently Rand Corporation is made up of idiots who will vote a twenty-five year old who only recently reappeared after disappearing for fifteen years back into their company. One person shouldn't be able to make that kind of decision just based on owning one percent more of the stock than everyone else. Danny could really, really easily get sued for taking over the company like he did. I mean, actually, Ward SHOULD'VE immediately taken him to court.

(Of course, that's a rant directed at the writers, not you, because you're just telling me information, which I thank you for.)

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, this might sound like a stupid question, but I'm not American so please bear with me: but why the hell would you have to teach someone over the age of 10 to READ? Like??? Haven't they already learnt how to read? Isn't that a very basic skill you learn when you're 6? Assuming of course that Danny went to school like a normal child, at the age of what, 7? So he learnt to read when he was 6-7, maybe 8-ish if he was slow. But after that? I don't understand, please explain.

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

OP

I'm not talking about reading full stop, I'm talking about reading LEVEL. A fifth grader reads at a different level than an eighth grader, who reads at a different level than a twelfth grader, who reads at a different level than someone who's been to law school. I wasn't saying you'd have to teach someone over the age of ten to read, I was saying you'd have to keep practicing for their reading to continue developing in areas like comprehension. There's a reason a ten year old at a solid fifth grade reading level would not be able to read the New York Times: the New York Times is written at an, iirc, eighth grade level.

You don't have to teach people to read past when they learn to read as such, but you do have to keep teaching them how to develop their reading skills (like comprehension, fluency, vocabulary, comprehension again because that's important). I said I was wondering about Danny's reading and math LEVELS for that reason, because I'm not sure how much of a chance he would've had to develop English-language reading and writing abilities, especially since it's not really a thing you're necessarily constantly doing like math if you're in a place that isn't heavily reliant on the written word. He's clearly literate, and, again, there are plenty of people who get by at a fifth grade reading level, so the reading and math things were more idle 'did the show ever mention any kind of schooling?' questions, since my main beef was with the whole lack of documentation and potential discrepancy between K'un Lun education and Reality 2017 education.

So, yeah, if someone over the age of ten knows how to read, they know how to read. But they still have a lot of skills to develop to become better at it.

Did that make sense?

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

*He's clearly literate, and, again, there are plenty of people who get by at a fifth grade reading level...

Let me clarify here: even if Danny is not actually past a fifth grade reading level in the English language, which wouldn't be unreasonable, there are plenty of people who get by at that level. But if he is past that level, I would kind of wonder how considering the fact that he'd had no chance to practice and develop his skills (unless there were books in English and someone specifically teaching him English, which seems so unlikely), and pretty much just arrive at the conclusion that he was a really advanced reader from the beginning. (And, presumably, an advanced mathematician as well.) Some people just have that gift.

I'm just spending a lot of time pondering the logistics of this whole thing.

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

Can we also if we're gonna have thos conversation all remember that even though he didn't speak a word of it presumably as a ten year old, Danny is shown onscreen a few times speaking fluent Chinese?

So assuming the monks ONLY taught him fighting would be wrong. He likely didn't receive NO education. He just received a culturally different one. If the monks are taking in many kids, presumably they have an interest in them being trained into an adult army. Like... if you join the U.S. Forces, you aren't just trained with weapons and they assume that's all you need.

I am assuming Danny was at minimum trained and guided to read ancient texts in Kun Lun related to his studies, maybe even in more than just the second language, in addition to probably a handful of other skills besides fighting. Not anything that would be as useful in a business setting. But not nothing either.

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

OP

I thought I did mention that I figure he had some kind of education with a different curriculum? Looking back, I don't think I did, but also I figured he learned by immersion if it wasn't formally taught.

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

As someone who grew up in a family where nobody read with no additional support outside of a classroom, can I just say:

The way to get better and improve your reading level outside of a classroom setting is just... to read and like reading?

Shockingly a great many people throughout history self-taught themselves to be some of the greatest writers and philosophers of all time. And as far as comprehension goes, if he stopped speaking English at ten but still learned a second language (Chinese) and was trained to comprehend, interpret and utilize texts in that language? Guess what... English specifically doesn't matter so much at that point. His vocabulary might not be the best when he returns to it but his actual comprehension level should be just fine.

Also, he has no accent. And he and his friend from Kun Lun Davos spoke English to each other in Iron Fist. So the monks clearly had some English fluency.

Educationally, I feel like there are much bigger gaps he would have in his learning that are more cultural than around knowledge that are more interesting to consider than literacy. To me, reading is the easy one. Besides the fact that historically and even still in some parts of the world, literacy does not equal intelligence anyway.

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

SA hoping that didn't come off rude. I just find it strange and a little sort of... Western-focused? To be so hung up on grade-based English reading levels as a way of understanding how capable or educated Danny is or isn't.

And I just would hate for fanon to coalesce around this idea that Danny receiving a culturally different non-traditional education = lesser than vs. just less useful specifically as a business person in New York.

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

Thanks for your response, but no, it still makes no sense to me. Perhaps it's due to the fact that where I'm from, there are no different levels of reading. You either read or don't read. Unless by "level" you mean things like how big one's vocabulary is, but then that is a very person-to-person thing.

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

OP

Okay, I figure that this is a cultural difference, then. I'm just thinking comprehension, pretty much. And learning how to interpret different kinds of writing, from fiction to mom-fiction to textbooks...stuff like that.

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

I dont think op is belittling non-western education, just asking why Rand Corp doesnt seem to. A western company WOULD take big issue with a hostile takeover from a twenty-five-year-old with no formal education.
and like.... Rand politics are like 70% the plot in Iron Fist. By the end of it Ward and Danny have gone through enough shit together that Ward's okay with Danny's involvement, though I imagine Ironfist s2 will shovel more corporate drama into a show about kung fu.
The point is, by Defenders, Danny's position in the company makes sense. Im personally glad they didnt have Ward or any Rand employee involved in the Defenders plot, there was Enough in Ironfist

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

Anon who posted about cultural educational biases here saying 100% it is correct to say that Rand Corp really should have taken issue with it more.

Like... grade levels of English literacy aside, cultural literacy and social literacy (which Danny does NOT demonstrate and which, let's face it, are like 95% of what an ivy league or competetive higher educational program is really FOR) are absolutely crucial to something like being a CEO or running Rand.

And it is correct that owning 51% of the shares does not automatically mean any say in day to day running of the business. There are definitely Walton family members who aren't making decisions at Walmart and Paris Hilton isn't exactly exerting any influence over Hilton Hotels. Danny might have a symbolic office but showing the board or shareholders being cool with him making decisions (especially unilaterally in Iron Fist, which is not how it works anyway) makes zero sense.

Then again... in a universe where the job of lawyer mostly consists of yelling "Objection" and comes across like mediocre Law and Order and where reporters act like they're about to nail that dastardly Nixon if their cowardly editors will just let them, is it really worth even having expectations that their portrayal of corporate America wouldn't read like the writers saw half of Wolf of Wall Street as research and called it a day?

Honestly, these Netflix shows are lucky the characters are so strong and well-characterized...

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

OP just popping in to say you're very right about how terribly the careers the characters have are represented. I was just especially baffled here bc I know that Iron Fist inexplicably had a lot of corporate drama.

It does come off like the writers watched half of Wolf of Wall Street...but they could've at least finished the movie...maybe even skimmed a law book...something to realize the 51% rule is bs...wishful thinking, I guess.

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you. I'm the OP, and that's exactly what I meant. I really am NOT belittling non-Western education. Honestly, I could've left out the entire 'levels' bit (and wish I had, and also wish I'd stop posting so soon before going to sleep lol) and the actual question would still be there, because yeah, non-Western education is valuable (and when I was being iffy about K'un Lun education I wasn't talking about non-Western education in general, I was just musing on what Abusive Monk Education From Another Dinension might've been like), but why would the people in Rand Corporation think that?

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

OP

oh, man, I responded to various comments here, but I totally just reread this post and I misrepresented myself when I said 'he didn't go to school past fifth grade'. I really did mean he didn't go to WESTERN school past fifth grade, so his culturally different education would've left him with gaps in Western knowledge that really shouldn't've been running a company. I didn't mean to say he didn't receive an education at all just because he didn't receive a high school or college education, which is what it came off as, sorry!!!

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

OP again

Also, of course they would've taught math, everyone teaches math, and considering the amount of revolutionary mathematicians who were taught in a way that wasn't equivalent to Western math (which isn't even taught WELL most of the time tbh)...he could probably actually know pretty advanced math, right? I have no idea what that would look like bc i know nothing about math, but still.

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

Well, to be fair, getting raised in a Buddhist monastery does involve a lot of education. It's just not the formal Western education. There's a lot of reading, trust me, though the choice of books is profoundly different to English canon. I have no idea how much math there is.

There's also a lot of self-discipline, mind and body exercises, spiritual teaching and molding your body to fit a particular ideal - all of which is education. None of which is Danny showing any signs of having received, although we're supposed to believe that he did.

For a best student of Kun Lun, he doesn't seem to have retained much of what must have been his lessons.

Yes, people call out Danny on his utter lack of competence for leading Rand several times. No one can really stop him from interfering in the company business, though, because, well, he OWNS it. Nothing much you can do about that, besides assassinations (which did happen).

The language thing isn't explained. I guess knowing more than one language is so foreign to US. writers that they don't realize you get rusty in a language (or forget it near-completely) if you don't use it for FIFTEEN YEARS. At the very least, he should have said something about Chinese being easier for him than English, but no. Nada.

I'm not sure if he's past a fifth grade. Does he make literally references? Calculate something? As long as you're not an idiot, you can function as an adult quite well with fifth grade math and reading. Especially if your finances are being managed by an army of corporate accountants and you spend most of your time "hunting the Hand" all over the world.

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, honestly, a bunch of Iron Fist is the writers not thinking about the implications of things to even come up with a quick handwave for them. Danny doesn't really behave like someone who genuinely immersed himself in the monastical culture--which *could* make sense, but he was also portrayed as if he were this perfect monk and lol he's just so much not it at all??

And it's very odd that he's so good at English still. I mean, he does have kind of childish speech patterns in it, but I doubt it'd be so easy or simple for him to speak it so fluently again. I wish there had been even a scene of him practicing and stumbling over it with strangers before he regained enough.

I don't think you can function *always* well with a 5th grade reading and math level, but you're right, Danny's so rich he can probably easily hire anyone to do anything he needs--reinterpret memos, do his domestic work that he's unfamiliar with, handle his finances and taxes, etc.

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

It's an interesting premise actually - a failed monk. A Western child that even after 15 years, couldn't let go of the culture and ideals it was born to. A man who sometimes chooses the Buddhist wisdom, and sometimes chooses the Western ambition. It would be almost the s.1 of DD - a moral drama, except with all the cultural issues at the center of it. You could hardly find two more different worldviews - which attitude is the right one? Where does a culture end, and a person start? Where do people between worlds have a home? Where should you look for answers?

Eeehh. the more I think about it, the more I like the idea. And then I remember - "The immortal iron fist". Right. So that's that.

Well, we could still at least see him learn about our world, get a fresh, outsider perspective on what we accept as normal... but we didn't. Right.

The explanation I came up with about the language was that he looks like he had walked half the world to finally get to Rand building (though I guess he conveniently landed on the right side of the ocean when that portal opened), so he probably had weeks or even months to practice. If he retained enough language from his childhood, it could be enough time to get fluent in everyday conversations.

Still, if your audience needs to come up with excuses for your characters, you're not doing a good enough job as a writer.

Well, *I* certainly couldn't function without at least some math. I need to calculate my taxes. But Danny mostly functions well outside the normal circumstances of our world. He runs around with a sword; he doesn't get memos, doesn't seem to have a home to do domestic work in, and Ward probably hired someone to manage his taxes and other finance stuff, just so Rand wouldn't get into some legal shit because of him, because Danny himself would never thought of it.

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

Huh, that does sound like a pretty interesting premise. Difficult to do without being racist or unnecessarily biased (and we all know how good the writers of Iron Fist are at not being racist/Orientalist *eyeroll*) but could be really interesting and different! But we didn't get that and I doubt we will, lmao. Danny himself would need to be more interesting and self-reflective and intelligent for it to work at all.

That's a decent headcanon as far as that goes, but it would be nice to have seen it. And I do wish that he at least acted more bilingual or trilingual or whatever--moments where he knows only the Chinese word for something, using odd grammar, not understanding some English phrases or jargon, etc.

I would imagine he has a penthouse apartment somewhere? But Danny probably doesn't even hire his own maids, Ward arranges for it and also makes sure the drivers have good NDAs and that if Danny ever decides to stay in the apartment it's already tastefully decorated, furnished, stocked with food, etc. Being megarich and a cute white boy does come with a lot of leeway nobody else would get.

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

Why does the language thing need an explanation? They presented K'un Lun as a multicultural place, with people who have made 'pilgrimages' there from all over the world. None of the members of the Hand were born there, it is mentioned that they returned to their home countries when they were banished. Danny also spoke English with Davos, who was born there, so it is not unreasonable to assume that English is likely taught and spoken in K'un Lun, alongside many other languages.

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

Wasn't Kun Lun sealed off for fifteen years? That pretty much guarantees no pilgrimages.

(frozen comment) Re: To people who watched Iron Fist: A Very Important Question about Danny Rand and education

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, but it has been open on and off for MILLENIA. You can't tell me there aren't still people there from before, not to mention the descendants of pilgrims who never left.