The Defenders-only Discussion Post!

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The Defenders Prompt Post

Talk about the Defenders! Speculate, discuss, squee and debate. There's a thread for each episode so you can discuss what you've watched so far without being spoiled for future episodes - click on top level view to see only the first comment in each thread and stay spoiler-free.

Anon commenting is not mandatory for this post. Playing nice is always mandatory.

Comments

Re: Whole season discussion

[(Anonymous)]

Honestly a little disappointed with how they handled Karen because like - she's been off gallivanting with the Punisher, for one, but also like...

If Matt weren't Daredevil, she would literally be dead. She would've been dead a long, long time ago.

Re: Whole season discussion

[(Anonymous)]

Well as long as she's not super patronizing about it then it's all okay.

Re: Whole season discussion

[(Anonymous)]

Hey, the Punisher also saved her! And Foggy. And Ben. And Ellison lent a helping hand at one point. Come to think of it, almost every man in her vicinity has needed to pitch in with the general "keep Karen safe" plan.

Re: Whole season discussion

[(Anonymous)]

Kind of sexist, don't you think? Damsel in distress, we're coming to the rescue...

Re: Whole season discussion

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, but after like the 8th rescue she's a LITTLE bit at fault for not taking proper precautions for her own safety.

Re: Whole season discussion

[(Anonymous)]

Karen really disappointed me throughout this season. Her insistence that Daredevil is separate from Matt and that he needs to give him up in order to be true to himself shows she knows zilch about Matt. Foggy at least brought him the suit. Karen... was just the absolute worst friend ever.

Re: Whole season discussion

[(Anonymous)]

She did not disappoint me in that I totally expected this kind of behavior from her. Matt not putting up with her shit for once was a nice surprise.

Re: Whole season discussion

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah. It didn't fit with my idea of the character of Karen, based on both seasons of Daredevil. She was super into the idea of Daredevil in the show. And even more taken with the Punisher. If she had found out Matt was DD back when she was gushing about being saved by him and him doing good work, I feel like she would've just been even more in love with Matt.

By the time Matt told her he was DD, tho, he'd been lying to her and screwing up the Castle case and had a strange woman in his bed, so I get that she would still be pissed at him etc. but it wouldn't be about being DD per se, it would be about Matt being a shit to her in general. Unless he himself blamed all of his shitty behavior on his addiction to DD'ing... And she believed that... So now she is all anti-DD since she believes it screws up his life too much and hurts his friends?

Idk. Would help if they showed us how that scene went, after Matt told her he was DD.

Re: Whole season discussion

[(Anonymous)]

Karen was consistently the low end of the show for me, too. Foggy wasn't great either but Karen, if this is how Karen loves Matt, then how is she any better for Matt than Elektra? They're both levels of toxic to him.

Re: Whole season discussion

[(Anonymous)]

x2

Re: Whole season discussion

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think Karen's against Daredevil, per se, I think she's against what being Daredevil does to Matt.

They went really hard with the addiction metaphor in Defenders. In DD s2 that comparison was definitely there, but it was spread out and a bit more subtle. Matt hit rock bottom with Elektra (metaphorical enabler) and now he's in the 'recovering addict' phase.

Karen doesn't actually have a problem with vigilante justice, she even says straight out that she thinks Daredevil made the city safer. She has a problem with how Matt handles being a vigilante - and for good reason, imo. Remember how Matt's downward spiral basically tore apart Karen's life apart in s2? Also she now knows for a fact he lied to her face about missing the mask. Of course she's mad. And scared. And nervous. Karen's not one for easy emotional reactions, if you hadn't noticed.

Re: Whole season discussion

[(Anonymous)]

It's less how she sees Matt's issues than how she talks to him about it.

Re: Whole season discussion

[(Anonymous)]

This is why i want to see how in the hell she will fit with The Punisher and how she is goign to "accept" what he is doing when she was so over Matt for being a vigilante...

I dont know if they will keep the Matt is dead plot when The Punisher starts, if they do it think it will be a bit much unless The Punisher is happening the next day after the events of The Defenders but i dont see Karen and how she is right now fitting with The Punisher at all...

My theory si that she just gets mad at everything for the sh!t she's been living and she just goes with it because she can...

I guess we will just have to wait and see...

Re: Whole season discussion

[(Anonymous)]

Yes to the addiction metaphor. Was anyone else having flashbacks to Buffy, when magic-using became = drug addiction way too much/too suddenly? (ok ok I know with Daredevil it is a much better metaphor)

Re: Whole season discussion

[(Anonymous)]

In the comics, Karen does this same crap to Matt except her reasoning is that Matt's blind, and her protectiveness for Matt is out of control. She has a crush on DD, she's in love with Matt (even when she's with Foggy, ugh), and when she finds out Matt is DD, she demands that he stop being DD because she's concerned for him. No, really, this goes on for a long time, they supposedly love each other but they can't make it work. She gives him the DD OR ME ultimatum, Matt keeps choosing the Devil over Karen, though, and she leaves him. It's a terrible semi-toxic on-off relationship that doesn't work until she accepts Matt for being DD and more or less gives her blessing.

My biggest problem on the show is that Karen is so duplicitous. She ranted at Frank about Matt's dishonesty while being guilty of the same. AFAWK she's never told Matt the truth about killing someone and hiding the evidence. Foggy's worried Matt being DD will force all of their cases to go back to trial, could get them disbarred, but Karen was working for them when she killed someone closely associated with Fisk before his trial. She continued working for Nelson & Murdock afterward, too, and she's never told Foggy or Matt about any of this. I'm still willing to bet Fisk will find out and there will be hell to pay for all of them. It's not just going to go away. But in Defenders, and considering she's alive because of DD and considering all the ways she's continued to lie to Matt and Foggy, considering how her lies and manipulations have gotten people around her killed, you'd think she'd be a little more understanding about Matt and DD. Or just accepting, maybe. Supportive? I get that she's emotional or scared and maybe she loves him, but she's come across really one way in a lot of scenes in DD s2 and now Defenders. This is not a good run for Karen. I hope she gets a chance to be redeemed in s3.