The Defenders-only Discussion Post!

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The Defenders Prompt Post

Talk about the Defenders! Speculate, discuss, squee and debate. There's a thread for each episode so you can discuss what you've watched so far without being spoiled for future episodes - click on top level view to see only the first comment in each thread and stay spoiler-free.

Anon commenting is not mandatory for this post. Playing nice is always mandatory.

Comments

Re: Whole season discussion

[(Anonymous)]

Loved:
- Matt and Jessica friendship
- Danny Rand
- Elektra freeing herself
- Stick dying
- Danny Rand
- Matt telling Karen to suck it
- the Matt and Foggy hug
- Danny and Luke befriending
- Matt and Danny bonding
- Jessica coming to save Trish and Matt helping
- Matt and Elektra, that was HOT

Hated:
- all the gaping plot holes, like wtf, Petrie and Ramirez are TERRIBLE
- the supporting cast was so underutilised, shame
- did they just kill Elektra AND Madame Gao AND the Hand as an organisation in one go?
- that ending, uh, I despise Born Again, and the whole Mother Nun thing is... thanks but no thanks.

Re: Whole season discussion

[(Anonymous)]

(I think Gao and Elektra survived)

Last bullet: Oh interesting. Can you fill us in, those of us who have not read the comics, on the basic thing of the Born Again storyline? What do you hate about it?

Re: Whole season discussion

[(Anonymous)]

Oh boy. :D The basic premise of Born Again is FINE - I don't mind the idea. In that storyline, heroin addict/failed porn star Karen Page sells out Daredevil's civilian identity. Kingpin finds out and decides to ruin Matt's life. He succeeds. Matt becomes broke and homeless and insane. After one particularly bloody fight with the Kingpin, Matt is found by Sister Maggie, his absentee mother who run away and became a nun. Matt and Karen get together and are broke together, and Matt tries to rebuild his life (works as a chef for example).

I have nothing against the premise of Matt losing everything and having to rebuild his life. But I have a lot against Frank Miller in general, against what he did to Karen, and against Sister Maggie.

The Mother Nun things is... weird. Creeps me out tbh. Addmittedly, Mark Waid tried to bring sense into that particular plot point - and he did! but it didn't stop it from being weird. Also - and this is the important part - it'd take some serious mental and creative gymnastics to make Mother Nun work in the MCU (and not like, have people hate her).

See, in comics Jack Murdock died when Matt was already an adult. So Matt's mother didn't really matter, Matt was FINE being told that she was dead. But in MCU, Jack died when Matt was 9. And he grew up in an orphanage, which means he had no relatives capable of raising him. Which in turn means that his mother did not step up after Jack's death. Which could mean that: a) she's run away and there was no way to find her (if that so then how tf is she casually a nun in NYC?), b) she doesn't have parental rights to Matt (either voluntary or involuntary termination).

One could say that since Matt grew up in an orphanage run by nuns, Mother Nun clearly was honouring Jack's request and making sure Matt was fine. But, umm... Yeah. I have an issue with this. As I said - heavy mental and creative gymnastics to make this look decent in MCU. And let's be real, Petrie and Ramirez are NOT good writers.

Re: Whole season discussion

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, so here's the thing on this: I am excited for Sister Maggie only because the comics never bothered to do much with her. Just like (let's face it) they also never bothered to do much with Stick and rarely with Foggy too. And the conics were much shittier about Karen. I think one thing the Netflix shows have a pretty good track record with up to this point is taking characters who were either extremely thinly characterized and/or problematic in the comics and making them into really complex, interesting and dynamic people played by actors who are fun to watch. If they could do it for me with Frank Castle, it can't be impossible with Matt's mom. I think there is an opportunity for them to take the idea of her and the context of the universe they've built and do something insane and great with it, Miller be damned.

And I think that there is a great opportunity for them to take the most interesting and high drama parts of Miller's story - the Kingpin finding out Matt's identity, a crazy fake Daredevil running around, Karen having a shady past that catches up to her, Matt having his entire life destroyed and having to redeem himself and choose to take his life back, etc. - and making them much more palatable and much less problematic overall.

I hate Miller. But I have to admit that there is an emotion and intensity and a high drama to his arcs that I would love to get a best possible version of without all the bullshit.

So I say bring it on. I'm willing to be open-minded. If the MCU can give me a Planet Hulk starring Thor and make talking raccoons and trees work, I can't really find a reason to be pessimistic. Even if Iron Fist did let me down.

Re: Whole season discussion

[(Anonymous)]

Seeing the great job they did with Stick, giving him backstory and an inner conflict about his affection for Matt, I can't wait to see what they do with Maggie.

Re: Whole season discussion

[(Anonymous)]

OP

See, I'm on a completely opposite side from you. Except for the Miller hate, I hate Miller and always found his stories intriguing in concept, but very, VERY flat in execution. Yes. Frank Miller's Daredevil bored me almost to tears (to tears bored me "Luke Cage", and "Jessica Jones" was close to it). I don't have a problem with the plot concept of Born Again - what you called "high drama parts" of it ARE interesting, if not exaclty engaging dramatically the way they were written - but with the concept of Sister Maggie. As you said, the comics haven't really done anything with her. And I most certainly don't trust the DD showrunners to do anything interesting or even good with her.

Mhm, perhaps "problematic" is a wrong word for Mother Nun. Everyone is problematic to some degree. Let's say that I don't see how she could be made sympathetic. Maybe that's better?

Anyway. I'd be astonished if Petrie&Ramirez made Sister Maggie into something I don't actively hate. (And their track record is not so good.) And anyway, I'm quite disappointed that they haven't decided to do something fun and their own with Matt's mother. (I'm not gonna say that I adore the three lines Spider-Gwen gave us about Matt's mother, but I DO.)

Unless that final scene is just a tease and an easter egg, and that my prayers will be answered and nothing will come of it. Oh gods, how I wish.