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The Defenders-only Discussion Post!

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The Defenders Prompt Post

Talk about the Defenders! Speculate, discuss, squee and debate. There's a thread for each episode so you can discuss what you've watched so far without being spoiled for future episodes - click on top level view to see only the first comment in each thread and stay spoiler-free.

Anon commenting is not mandatory for this post. Playing nice is always mandatory.

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A friend pointed out that Matt offered to help Frank kill the Blacksmith in s2, and Frank shoved Matt off the boat to keep him from doing it. Frank took the choice away from Matt but he also saved Matt from himself. He at least saved Matt's soul and he definitely saved his life later, too.

In the Defenders, Luke, Jessica, and Danny allow Matt to make a terrible but heartfelt decision to stay and try to talk Elektra around (who makes sure Matt can't leave her), nobody intervenes, and Matt dies.

Meanwhile, Matt's best friends, Karen and Foggy, are trying to get Matt to leave DD in the dust but Matt's miserable and guilty and lying about everything.

Y'all, the merciless serial killer, Frank Castle, has done more for Matt Murdock/DD than the heroic Defenders, the other serial killer Elektra, and Karen and Foggy all combined? That's an oversimplification but I can't stop thinking about this. Matt and Frank aren't even friends! Did the show do this on purpose? Matt made his choice to talk to Elektra, but now I'm really confused about whether Matt should be allowed any agency as DD, can he be trusted to keep himself alive when he's out there alone, does dying change him on some level so he's more careful now, or does he need a keeper? I hate to think of Matt being controlled by anyone, but looking back at s2, he really did benefit from having Frank around. I'm really curious what Frank will say about Matt being dead, though. If he'll care at all.

While I don't like it, I can see how they're slowly transforming him over several seasons to the Foggy in the comics - his hair is getting shorter, he's getting more professional (he lost the leather wristband after season 1, he has a new watch in Defenders). The real difference is that Foggy in the comics doesn't have a oil tanker's worth of oil in his hair.

"Matt offered to help Frank kill the Blacksmith in s2"

That's true but Matt didnt want to do it in the first place, he said he was gonna do it Frank's way just to help the guy feel good but also his "im jot killing anynone" policy ended the day the hand "killed" Elektra. He went after Nobu and went for the kill. In the Defenders he doesnt even hesitate when it coems to killing the people still inside the building (tho they are all bad guys) Unlike Luke who was the only one not on board with the plan.

I think Matt has changed. He understands that if killing if what it takes to end soemting terrible after trying and trying the right way. He will do it. He is not Frank but Matt went already there...

"Meanwhile, Matt's best friends, Karen and Foggy, are trying to get Matt to leave DD in the dust but Matt's miserable and guilty and lying about everything. "

It's wrong, what Karen and Foggy are doing it's wrong but as we got from the show it was Matt who told them he was gonna stop being DD after the whole Hand mess and the three of them knew that was a lie, they just decided to go with it. Matt felt guilty, Karen wanted the "old" Matt back and Foggy wanted his friend as he has said many times. The three of them are toxic to each other but they still feel the need to be together. That's why i feel that DD is the most interesting Marvel Netflix show when it comes to friendship. We don't have the supportive friends we have in the rest of the shows. Everyone here needs to realize of their own mistakes and accept what is hapenning and i hope we get to that soon...

"In the Defenders, Luke, Jessica, and Danny allow Matt to make a terrible but heartfelt decision to stay and try to talk Elektra around (who makes sure Matt can't leave her), nobody intervenes, and Matt dies. "

I have to say this cause this is what i felt after i saw the show. As good as Matt and Jessica interactions were, as good as Matt's interactions with all the defenders team were. They didnt care if he lived or not. Luke said it. He felt bad for Matt and those who he left behind but he was glad it was him and not Jessica... and That's a a very appropiate reaction cause they only knew Matt for two days. They took his advice and are working for the city to be a better place but they didnt really understand him. Jessica might have but i doubt it...

I really hate the wait for DDS3 cause i need to know what is going to happen with our main three and what are the consequences of Matt ebing gone...

Well as a Fratt shipper this is the kind of shit that makes me squee out loud, but I do have to say that I think this gets at something very important: neither the Defenders nor Foggy&Karen quite understand Matt's actual philosophy around vigilantism. During the long rooftop chain scene, Frank and Matt both articulated their positions in vigilantism and killing (respectively, you can't take the chance that people will change because when they don't more people will get hurt vs you can't condemn and kill people because that means you kill people who have changed/will change for the better).

Frank got how Catholic Matt is, how he bizarrely enough believes in hope and optimism, and also how Matt does enjoy violence ("that's just one of the perks?") but it's not like it's his primary motivator, you know? And Matt got to the core of Frank too, how he does genuinely believe that he's doing good and that violence/death is the only answer, and how he is motivated by his grief but he is still actively choosing to kill people in the absence of anything else, and how he views himself as a real force for good instead of a schoolyard bully.

I don't think, canonically, we've gotten a scene between either the Defenders or Foggy&Karen with Matt where they seriously sat down and talked and listened to each other. Nelson v Murdock was all hurt feelings and horrible insecurities and feeling like you don't know your best friend vs all your worst abandonment issues coming true, and the Defenders just don't have that emotional intimacy yet.

And Frank sort of has a gift for understanding Matt, and canonically Matt has this gift for seeing the good still in Frank. It's one of the reasons why I ship them so hard, and I love that the MCU did this.

AYRT

I don't mind that he was in the series, I just mind that his role and involvement (and death) wasn't written better.

Stick is brilliantly played, but even the best actor can make sitting around look meaningful only for so long. Especially when the character is an age-old warrior supposedly dead-set on fighting and defeating his equally age-old enemy, and when the fight is whirling all around him, all he does is watch some kids do his job for him.

A lot of really interesting points here about Matt's philosophy. You're right, it's unique and I don't think Foggy, Karen, or any of the Defenders are equipped to understand it without a serious long chat. In the context of Catholicism I think it's interesting to consider that it wouldn't just be a generalised faith in the human spirit or Jesus' redemption - Matt would believe in literal miracles. You can't give up hope when God could intervene at any moment. If you put his decision to keep trying to reason with Elektra and even his peace with the possibility of death in that framework, he's just not necessarily motivated by practicality and I'm not sure I see what the Defenders could have done about it. Luke could have tried to sit on him but I don't know how well that would have gone. I kind of love that Matt has more in common with the antiheroes wrt his moments of borderline zealotry.

Exactly! And I think that it's actually easier for Frank and him to have that conversation than Foggy and Matt for the simplest reason that Frank has no prior relationship or expectations of him. They don't already have feelings and assumptions about each other that would interfere in it, and Matt literally can't squirm his way out of the conversation. At the end of the day, Matt and Frank are both very literal and serious about their philosophies, and neither of them is stoppable except by their own deaths.

I think that Matt's Catholicism also gives him an intense, devout sense of his own martyrdom being beautiful and him being doomed to it no matter what he does, as well as a sense that he's willing to dive headfirst into suffering because it is almost a form of love for him--to do so much, to take on what must be done.

Wow yeah, now you say it I think that's true. He has a ton of investment in that idea of pain and suffering being functional. And maybe all this mortification of the flesh isn't just for the soul of Hell's Kitchen. He knows being Daredevil is a sin even if he thinks it's a necessary one, so maybe he thinks his suffering helps balances things out.

Which is another way that he and Foggy/Karen would be talking past each other, because he hears Foggy when Foggy says he doesn't want Matt to get hurt, but to Matt getting hurt is just a necessary part of the process.

(Admittedly I love the pretty tragedy of Matt/Elektra and now the idea that Matt basically "died" for Elektra's sins is giving me way too many feelings.)

Complete religious tangent but I am now picturing Matt deathfic in which the Catholics of Hell's Kitchen basically decide that Matt's service to the community and whatever type of heroic, martyred death make him worthy to be beatified/canonised and Church officials try to ignore their Violent Vigilante for Sainthood campaign in the hopes that it will just go away and the Defenders/Foggy/Karen are not trying to be insensitive? But they are really weirded out by all the pilgrims turning up on their doorsteps, and Jessica really does not want to hear any more babbling about how Matt appeared to someone in a dream or whatever.

Made all the more awkward when Matt later turns up alive, of course.

That would be awesome! And his resurrection would seem to be a miracle, too, of course, especially if Matt had no idea how he lived.

And part of the thing is that I definitely see Foggy having a lot of difficulty interpreting things through Matt's lens. He would see it as self-hatred and even punishing himself, and to a degree it is that, but Matt's whole thing is to do the sinful thing as a way of preventing other sins. He wants to help people, not just by saving them, but by preventing them from having to become him. (Another way he and Frank are similar.) He knows it's sinful and wrong, and that's why he probably confesses to it, but he must do it for the sake of everyone else, even if that means Purgatory after his death and his injuries and his fallings-out.

I think this aspect can be seen in the whole human traffickers episode--he almost dies, is horribly injured, is weak and targeted by hitmen, has to torture a guy on a rooftop and almost kill him, and he goes back and visibly forces himself to keep getting back into the fight, all to save the kid and carry him to safety. That's his whole Daredevilling. Does he clearly enjoy torturing the dude and beat up the other dudes? Yes. But he also does it for a fundamentally good reason, and with awareness of who is and what he's doing.

Shoving Madam Gao down several pegs just to graft some gravitas onto Alexandra was some real bullshit. Finally got to see more of the magnificent Madam Gao after the awesome mysteriousness in Daredevil and now she's playing second fiddle? For real?

Also, why was she American? In the comics, the Hand was founded in 1588, and in the shows, it's implied it's so old that records of its founding barely exist. It vastly predates America.

While Alexandra was done really, really well and I like her (Sidelining Madam Gao was unnecessary even) the fact that she's American really undermines her legitimacy re: being part of the Hand for me.

Why is the Hand so multicultural anyway? Bakuto is a weenie (Much like the Iron Fist) and they never bothered to inform us much at all about Sowande. So what's the justification for it not being a terrifying Asian clan of ninjas? And like, that's the other thing. Nobody but Madam Gao displayed real prowess. SHE was scary. SHE had goddamned telekinesis. What exactly did Sowande do other than having cliche African mercenaries? (Also: Give the black guy the pimp outfit, really? I was hoping it was something from the comics but I can't find anything...) What did Bakuto do other than creep on Colleen?

If they got some really fantastic actors and well-fleshed-out parts to fill those two fingers (Alexandra manages to do so) it might not have been a big deal, but as it is they feel out of place.

How did word of Kun-Lun even GET to South America back then...?

I just can't get over how lame and wasted The Hand was in this. We didn't even get one single creepy setpiece like the scene where Matt found a bunch of slaves being drained of blood in Daredevil. Surely an organization capable of that should have MORE creepiness in store when they finally get into the heart of it, not less. Elektra only barely counts considering we already know about Nobu and the mechanism (more or less) that resurrected him. SIGH. Dragon bones my ass!

I don't think that Foggy could both be seeing him for the first time since season 2 and checking ONLY to see if he backslid on Daredevil unless he's been talking to Karen, but not Matt, in the meanwhile. Otherwise he would have no idea he planned to give it up to know he backslid. When they had their last conversation in season 2 Matt was clearly planning to continue as Daredevil, and Foggy gave him idea of where to look for the Hand, knowing what he was doing. So short of talking to Karen or Matt he wouldn't know to "check in" because he wouldn't know he was trying to stop. I can't go bath ways. Either they haven't been in communication so Foggy expects Matt is just being Daredevil and not "checking in to see if he fell off the wagon," or they have been in limited communication.

Matt's statement as that they had gone a long time between meeting, but that it was a long time between meetings unlike before, and this saddened him.

I also fundamentally disagree that it is on Foggy to get in touch in the first place. Matt told him to leave, and he did, but not before Matt caused a lot of harm to their relationship. Castle case aside, though that was one of many unilateral decision Matt made throughout their practice and friendship, there was one key moment where Matt created great harm that has never been addressed.

When Foggy was shot, Matt left him, and he never came to see him. "But he was on the roof" "but he was trying to protect him." Foggy doesn't know that. You as the audience do, but Foggy doesn't. (Remember how he asked Marci if Matt was coming, if she saw him).

This broke them for Foggy. He considered them family. He would do anything for Matt, (and has on multiple occasions put himself in the line of fire metaphirucally or potentially literally once), for Matt, but Matt didn't show. I think that's when Foggy gave up on them as anything more than casual friends, and let himself be pushed away, because if he meant as much to Matt as Matt meant to him, he felt he should have been there.

Expecting Foggy to be the first to reach out after that because Matt's had bad stuff happen in his life and is damaged is unreasonable. Yet, Foggy reaches out first anyway, because Matt won't.

The key may be symbolic, but so was "look for manholes" in DD 2. It was a "you're gonna do what you do, and I may not approve, but if you loop me in, I can help."

Back to my point though. Matt did real damage to their relationship. Why is the onus on Foggy to make the first move and fully accept Matt when Matt has not reached out AT ALL to Foggy, or in anyway died to right the damage, (casually saying he's sorry in passing in the office actually made it worse, because it made it seem like it was a small thing, when for Foggy it was huge). So I feel, yes, everything Foggy does is because he cares about Matt, but he's keeping a distance because he feels that they are not on equal ground (i.e. Foggy values Matt's friendship more than the other way around) , and that Matt opening up enough to tell him the truth would show he's letting him in, whereas otherwise they can't be more than casual friends despite Foggy feeling Matt is his family.

Yes Matt is damaged and has learned not to trust. That's not an excuse. You break it, you fix it. He hasn't even tried. Yet Foggy still reaches out. Imperfectly, but HE's THERE. Showing up is step one.

Matt needs to tell son truths (at least in why he left, at least on why he didn't reach out), to START repairing the relationship before he expects acceptance. Because the way it look now to Foggy, Matt didn't care enough about him to check in on him, or make the first move to let him back in by explaining why he was unavailable to check in. That small piece is huge.

SA

I guess my biggest problem with anyone saying Foggy needs to accept Matt fully for Matt to be honest. he needs to the first move or his not a good friend. That Matt is damaged and not trusting and fleeing is what he knows, so it is on Foggy , is that if Foggy does that, it really makes him the "adult" in the relationship in a way far more conscendnf ting than some people read the bar scene. It would be tantamount to saying "you're so damaged you can't make or maintain healthy relationships, so I have no expectations that you will bring anything to thus friendship other than you, while I fix everything and pretend you never manipulated me or hurt me. I have all the responsibility here, because you're broken."

So was anyone else disappointed at how underutilized superstrength was? I haven't seen Jessica Jones yet (Suicide triggers my OCD HARD) so I don't know if the show was different or not, but I was expecting dudes to be flying tens of feet left and right from single punches.

People like JJ and Luke shouldn't be struggling with street level grunts!

Madame Gao have Jessica and Luke a run for their money in that departnent tho she was doing it with her mind

Yes! I find that episode so uncomfortable to watch but (and these two things are probably related) it is great for underscoring Matt as a man With a Mission. And yes, it is mostly very purposeful. The early scenes with Father Lantom do a great job with the undercurrents of the idea that Matt is aware that this choice will probably or even definitely keep him out of heaven. He completely acknowledges that, then does it anyway, because it needs doing.

So he loves Foggy and Karen, but honestly, if the thought of rejecting God (which is basically what committing a sin on purpose is and why Father Lantom is like wtf, strange dude, you can't confess *in advance*) and being eternally punished for it isn't enough to scare him straight, the sad and disappointed voices of his friends aren't likely to make a dent.

ayrt

I know what you mean and I'd have loved to see him go out in glorious battle, but idk if i'm saying this right but the series was really pushing a lot of themes in variations, like family and sacrifice and love. Stick had the chance to kill Elektra in that scene, he holds the blade to her neck and freezes, and that's what killed him: love. That's a crappy way to put it but lol that's the theme. And it's the same thing that 'kills' Matt later. In DD s1 I hated Stick so much and I'm still angry about so many of his actions, but the idea that for the majority of his life he was this terrible human being who only cared about war and spent a long time killing (sounds like a beta vers of Frank Castle), it's oddly comforting and painful that he finally figured out what it's like to have family. It's like he finally understood what it is to have kids and love them and want them to survive and succeed. He came to care about Matt and Elektra more than he did his damn war, and his death is so frustrating to me, but it's meaningful too.

Did Matt kill people in the building, tho? Do you mean actual real people or Hand, because Matt was okay with killing the Hand in s2 when he went after Nobu, but I think Stick convinced him about Nobu not really being a person anymore when he talked about Nobu having lived for several lifetimes. Matt kicks Nobo off that ledge and he sees him lying down there, dead, and Nobu comes right back to life. Matt knows he can't kill these people. That's why he tells Danny you can't stop these people, even with whatever your fist does. When he offers to help to blow up the building, the only people left in there are the Hand, he makes sure of it. I don't think it was clear at all but Matt killing a normal person isn't the same as killing the Hand. That's the way it is in the comics, too. Matt/DD 'kills' the Hand constantly because they're not really 'alive'.

Holy crap, you're so right about Matt, Karen, and Foggy being toxic for each other. I agree with you, it's why I love DD too because these are not basic cookie-cutter relationships. All of these characters have some serious issues, and they love each other but they're terrible for each other too. Like reading the original post here is about Frank doing a lot for Matt, and it's true. They hurt each other and rescue each other but there's legit respect and understanding there, and some of those things don't show up in Matt's other relationships in the same way. Everyone is so complicated and twisted, messed up, like the relationship with Stick and Matt and Elektra. GOD. It's amazing tho, I love it.

And the other problem is that, I think, a lot of Foggy and Karen's reasons why Matt shouldn't do it are fundamentally things Matt doesn't care about. Foggy's like "but I don't want you getting hurt/ I want us to be normal/ I want you to be happy" and Matt doesn't think he *can* not be hurt and not-normal and unhappy, and Karen has even more arguments in that vein but all of which rely on this idea that, like, there's a Matt Murdock without the violence and rage who maybe if he really did stop wearing the Daredevil suit and would go to therapy (or date Karen/Foggy lol) and lived a 'normal' life would finally be unlocked. But that's not true, it's like Daredevil is a mask that Matt puts on, it's fundamentally a way for him to show a part of who he truly *is* that isn't nice or comfortable but is very, very true to life. He isn't addicted to violence so much as incapable of balancing the different people that he is, and they cannot accept that maybe he *can't* be normal and he *can't* go back to pretending to just be like any other guy.

Oh yeah, very true, this conversation goes nowhere until Foggy and Karen admit that they are pushing for the return of a guy who doesn't exist. Though in what I guess is their defense, Matt has only just reached the point where he is willing to tell them that.

Yeah, none of them have actually communicated very well with this. Though I cheered when Matt responded to Karen's inane "you're almost back to your life" with "this is my life", which sort of encapsulates why she frustrates me. She barely knows this guy, met one facet of him and declared it to be the 'real' him all the while finding Daredevil hot and then denouncing him after Daredevil saved her life, which is honestly just so irritating. Pick a side, Karen!

I think that Matt's Catholicism also gives him an intense, devout sense of his own martyrdom being beautiful and him being doomed to it no matter what he does, as well as a sense that he's willing to dive headfirst into suffering because it is almost a form of love for him--to do so much, to take on what must be done.

As a lapsed Catholic, this thought speaks to me on such profound levels. It makes so much sense wrt Matt's philosophies and faith. It's also something that's been baked into him, though. Or something that he grabbed onto in the orphanage? Because he's not particularly Catholic as a child. But as a child, when he still had his sight, he was already a tiny hero and maybe the Catholicism gave him a better reason for it, or grounded him or something. There's a lot of suffering-for-others in the bible and with Matt, landmark moments in his life reflect the same. It's like every time he does something good, something bad happens. He saves a life, he loses his sight. He keeps his father on his feet during that last fight, to paraphrase Frank Castle, he loses his father. He finally learns to control his senses, Stick leaves him. It's like there's some sort of equivalent exchange pattern set up, like suffering is expected and inescapable. Maybe you're right that he sees death as fate, and he's accepted martyrdom as the best, most beautiful outcome he'll pay for doing what needs to be done.

Slight segue, there's another comment here about some of the themes in Defenders being (found) family, love and sacrifice. How Stick had a chance to kill Elektra and he freezes because in spite of thinking she's a monster, he still loves her. And Elektra kills him. Love is what gets Stick killed. The same thing 'kills' Matt later. DD and Defenders have managed to take such beautiful themes like love and sacrifice and family and twist them into very complicated, unexpected knots that don't work in conventional ways. Frank and Matt? Idek what to call them but yeah, they feel necessary to each other. Karen and Foggy? Besties? Worsties? Idk. Are the Defenders friends? Teammates? Workmates? Idk! Honestly it's the most amazing and annoying thing that idk how to label these relationships lol. But I do love, like someone else said here, that Matt probably has a better understanding--and is better understood, by the anti-heroes than anyone else on these shows.

DA
"Matt probably has a better understanding--and is better understood, by the anti-heroes than anyone else on these shows."

This si so true and i think it's for the same reason he is so confortable with Elektra. They don't know about Matt the lawyer, the Matt that has to put on a different mask everyday of his life, and this is the Matt that Foggy and Karen knows but which one is the real Matthew Murdock. The answers is easy.. it's both but Matt doesnt know how to balance that. Charlie Cox said in a recent even that Matt Murdock is the fake persona but Daredevil wants to be like Matt Murdock and Matt Murdock wants to be like Daredevil so how do we balance that, that's the point that they haven't shown yet and i think we are gonna get there in s3.

DA

When does Defenders say the only time they meet is for this reason? Matt said it had been a long time, but that is an indeterminate amount of time. They used to see each other everyday, so a few weeks would be forever in comparison. They aren't as close as they were, that doesn't mean the only reason they met is for Daredeviling check-ins.

Also if Matt is trying to stop because in his own words "getting involved only made things worse," and Foggy knows this, how is him seeing if Matt is struggling to do that, and offering him alternatives to help him met his self-stated goal not friendship? I think checking in is a form of friendship, (even if it could be argued it's also condescending). [Furthermore, even if it was completely condescension, "I don't think you can take care of yourself. Are you okay? Try this, it will be better for you." Which I really don't think it was. But even if it was, the motivation to do that would be concern for Matt's life. Which is still concern, although a condescending form in a misguided act of friendship, which is still friendship. If Matt leaving to 'protect his friends' as misguided an act as that is, especially unexplained, is something you consider Matt trying to be a good friend, surely trying to convince your friend to give up something that you have almost seen him get killed multiple times is also an act of friendship. So I think other anin's concern theory is true).

As for his gratefulness, I feel like he has to have known that he screwed Foggy over in S2 of DD. Whatever his reasons were, he didn't show up in court, he didn't show up in the hospital, and the thing he probably worries about most and I imagine Foggy probably worries about least of the list, Foggy got shot (in Matt's opinion, because of him). The fact Foggy is willing to reach out to him at all probably is completely unexpected for Matt, because Matt is extremely self-punishing, and he feels he doesn't deserve it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "every time Matt tells Foggy the truth, Foggy makes him pay for it," because the times Matt told Foggy the whole truth and not part of it and then said "you wouldn't believe me if I told you" as a short cut are minuscule, and most times there was way more in play. And every time Foggy "made him pay" by what I assume is anger and disapproval it's when the act is done and Matt is telling the truth after things have gone south, because it's seeped into Foggy's life, (see examples below), and he is trying to justify his actions. Foggy gets angry not so much because Matt is telling him the truth, but because of how he is telling him the truth (which is essentially "I know (x) but it's because (y) and so it's really not a big deal that (x) happened in comparison to (y) because I must/must not (y).") The one time he tells Foggy the truth ahead of time (taking down Fisk), Foggy actually supports him, even if he is a little hesitant because he's worried.

During the reveal, he is not just telling the truth he is exposing that he has been lying their entire friendship, making Foggy question everything. Yes, Foggy said some unkind things, but Matt actually "paid" very little since he paid in justified anger (Matt lied for years, did countless things under false pretenses, involved their firm in illegal activity without even telling Foggy), in no way apologized, or did anything other than try to justify his actions while not acknowledging at all that what he did hurt Foggy. I should clarify, I am not saying Matt needs to apologize for being himself, but he does not to apologize for hurting Foggy. They are related, but not the same thing.

Later, he told the truth (sort of?) when he got shot in the head, and he tried to minimize it before Foggy got truly nasty. (Come on, Matt as good as said that he, a short range hand-to-hand fighter, was better equipped for taking down a trained, military-precise person with a long-range weapons than several trained cops who also have long-range weapons, so it was okay for him to go out again less than 24 hours after getting shot in the head because it was necessary. And that Foggy was being dramatic for thinking it was a big deal.)

In the bathroom in the courthouse, Matt only told him a partial truth, and in a "you wouldn't believe me if I tried" attitude that was infuriating to Foggy. Also, even if he hadn't, Foggy is allowed to be human and get mad, and then cool off. They lost a major witness, and Matt was involved, even if unintentionally and indirectly, why does Foggy need to be so perfect that he doesn't get angry? Why doesn't Matt who has on a few occasions thrown things in anger, and in the bathroom tried to physically grab Foggy in anger and desperation, have any responsibility to acknowledge that sometimes anger is a natural part of life, friendship and relationships, (damaged past or not)?

The comparison to Jessica is not the same. She came down on him when he lied too. She was upset with him when his action effected her and he didn't keep her in the loop. That she acknowledged he and abandonment issue, (which she discovered by invasively searching his past by the way), made a connection because she's experienced bad things too, which she knows he knows, and showed understanding. That is not acceptance of his life or his choices. Understanding is not equal to acceptance. (Equally Foggy is not without understanding. Part of the reason he and Matt were friends was because he never doubted Matt was capable because he was blind. He saw Matt as self-sufficient, brilliant and as a person not a disability. He also responded with whatever understanding he had to any truth Matt told him about his dad.) She didn't justify his actions, nor should she, nor should Foggy.

I think Matt sees things too simplistically. All or nothing, absolutism, (Foggy could be hurt by what I do, so I will leave so he will not be affected. Foggy was shot because of me, I am bad for him. Vigilantism produced Frank, so it is bad, and I should stop. Me getting involved with the Hand led to Elektra's death so all I did was bad so I should stop being Daredevil. Foggy is mad at me so he rejects me. Foggy doesn't completely get Daredevil so he never will. Elektra love me, so we are good together. Elektra killed someone so she is bad. I can't tell you the truth, because you might disagree or be upset.) A with me or against me mentality. The end justifies the means. I will not apologize for being me or doing the right thing. Any push back is judgment or rejection.

Foggy sees things differently, and more complexly. Things are a combination of right and wrong (this man is in a motorcycle gang and doubtlessly violent, but he also donates food to the needy every year. This man did bad things and went to jail, and rightfully so, but he loves his daughter and I want to help him do right by her. It is good to help a woman get away from her abusive husband, but it bothers me that you are hurt, and I am not sure it's worth losing you. I love, and I don't like that what you do as Daredevil hurts you, but I would still lie to cover for you, or risk my life or career to help you do it. I think you should balance your life and sometimes step back from Daredevil, what you can't? Well if it's go, go all the time or not at all, then not at all is preferable because the other will get you killed. I would rather you take cases than be Daredevil, but I still acknowledge that what you did/do as Daredevil is heroic [i.e. "Being a different kind of hero" implies that being DD is being a hero]. You can tell me the truth, because even if I disagree or am upset, I will still help you, and I will still love you.) I want to be with you, but I want you safe, and I really don't understand why you are doing this when you're risking so much, (which just leads to Matt getting mad instead of explaining in terms of yes, I know what is at risk and I still chose this for x reason, or no I didn't think of that, but it is still worth it for this reason), but if push comes to shove I am always in your corner whether or not I totally agree (someone else asked if Foggy bore any legal responsibility after choosing to come back. I think he does, and I think he thinks he does, even if he is a little resentful that he had to make the choice between upholding the law which he strongly believes in and swore to uphold, or helping Matt, whom he loves). The ends might be desirable, but one is still responsible for the mess they made along the way. I am not asking you to apologize for being you or doing what you think is right, but I am asking you to consider how what you do affects other people, and apologize or make reparations if your actions along the way hurt them. Acknowledge that your actions have consequences that hurt me or someone else. That is not the same as saying everything you did is wrong, and pointing it out to you when you seem to be avoiding it is not judgment but a reality check from someone who cares enough to hold you accountable and is also kind of hurt that you don't seem to understand that what you do has affected them and you seem to be downplaying it.

Acceptance is not all or nothing. Caring about someone does not mean thinking everything they do is good for them. Loving someone does not mean agreeing with them all the time, or that you will never hurt them, or make mistakes.

Foggy can only do so much. I think saying "they both made mistakes and both need to change" is simplistic, but better than putting Foggy fully at fault. Yes, Foggy made mistakes, but Matt's are an immovable roadblock until he deals with some of his abandonment issues and other issues that seem to cause him to be unable to own up to his mistakes, or do anything other than wallow in them the few times he acknowledges them, and to assign an undue amount of judgment and malice to what Foggy is saying. It's not necessarily fault, but it is key that Matt needs to change his hardline point of view for the friendship to be anywhere near equal ground. Anything short of that is Foggy accepting anything Matt dishes out while supporting Matt, because accepting Daredevil the way Matt wants is accepting that any collateral damage to their work or relationship is okay because Matt's doing good as Daredevil, and thus Matt apparently can't be held accountable for anything he does along the way. It would be taking the majority of the burden because Matt needs him, and he wants Matt, but Matt is not ready to give support or understanding to the level he gets it.

Did this show seriously fucking expect me to believe that Jessica was able to tail Matt and snap photos of him without him knowing?

Have either of you considered that a more fair comparison to Jessica would be Foggy is seasons 1 of Daredevil?

Matt lied to Jessica and the rest of the team. She was mad. She learned more, she decided there was a reason and decided to trust him.

In season 1 of Daredevil Foggy finds out Matt lied. He is angry. He learns more about Fisk, and he reaches out in an olive branch to Matt. He acknowledges that DD has a part to play, and when Matt goes out to stop Fisk, Foggy trusts him. He tell him to "go be a hero" and trusts he has to do this.

Admittedly it's not a perfect match, but I think closer to Jess accepts him fully, or differentiating that understanding is not acceptance.

However, if after Jess' act of trust, Matt started doing the same stuff. Withholding from the group and endangering them, I don't think understanding him would prevent her from being angry.

Likewise, when Foggy acknowledged Fisk needed to be stopped by both the law and DD and trusted Matt, Matt followed that by escalating DD until he was going every night, getting hurt all the time, lying or neglecting to mention what he was doing, and eventually not showing up for work.

Foggy might accept there's a place for DD, but Matt took it to an extreme, and wasn't honest about it. In light of that, Foggy's worry, and then anger when his worry was ignored or belittled, and eventual wariness and mistrust when the cycle repeats and worsens bring them both down all while Matt still minimising show bad things have gotten until it became undeniable and then at that point he pulled a 180 and tried to shove Foggy out the door because it's too dangerous and too big a deal, (and to hard to face that Foggy had a point and he let him down).

Side note, Matt's send off to Elektra (we keep hurting each other. You believe something I can't support, and asking you to change it is asking you to be someone else, so we need to be apart), and his attempt to push Foggy away, (I won't apologise for who I am, start again with out me, I hold you back) seemed very parallel. I think in Matt's mind he was Foggy's Elektra in that Foggy was against vigilantism and Matt was a vigilante and to be otherwise would not be true to himself. I also think Matt is making a false parallel.

Matt's "true north" to borrow a phrase from Claire, is doing what he believes is right according to personal conviction. He believes murder is wrong, therefore what Elektra does is wrong, but she doesn't see it that way, putting them at odds and making them hurt each other and better off without each other. I think he believes Foggy is this way too, and that Foggy believes vigilantism is illegal and that makes it against his value system based on upholding the law (even though he is willing to fudge the law he thinks for him it is his moral truth), therefore what Matt does is wrong, but Matt doesn't see it that way, so they are at odds and hurt each other, and so they might be better off without each other too.

He's wrong on two counts. One, he misses Foggy because he relied on him more than he acknowledged and so he was not better off without him. Two, his assumption about Foggy's values is wrong.

Truth is, for Foggy, his true north is taking care of people and doing what preserves relationship. Basically he values maintaining relationship over an absolute moral conviction. That's why it's not as simple as not helping Matt even when it bothers him to do so because he has some problem with the legality of DD, (for Matt it would be; you follow my values or I leave), because his truth is putting people over ideals. Matt's safety. Matt's needs.

I think those who side with Foggy and those who side with Matt have a different moral hierarchy much like the men themselves.

Matt is straight up Kohlberg, where the highest form of morality is adherence to personal conviction. People who agree with this can't see why Foggy can't get onboard with Matt's convictions. There are who he is and he has to live them. Didn't he say he wouldn't apologise for who he was and explain about the sirens and his conviction that he had to protect the city? He needs to do that to be morally right. It is his conviction and who he is.

Foggy, on the other hand is straight up Gilligan, where the highest form of morality is considering the needs of everyone in the group and putting the group functionality, needs, and unity first by making sure to maintain the group and relationship when making choices. Interestingly Gilligan's theory was created because most women fall at this level, which is two steps down from the top of Kohlberg's ladder of morality, and she believed that women view the world differently rather than that they were morally stunted. Now obviously the scales are bigger than gender since I believe Foggy as a male may have a more Gilligan compatible view, and I am guess not everyone siding with Matt is male, though I am unsure. At any rate, from Foggy's point of view, Matt is consistently putting personal needs about the needs and functionality of the group, (I.e. showing up to court late because his activity as DD is so prolific it's cutting into his obligations. Downplaying his injuries or the needs of other for him to be well. Downplaying Foggy's concern that Matt might not be able to continue practicing with him because he may die or get disbarred. Making unilateral decisions about the practice.), and furthermore he is not trying to restore group harmony and seems to rebuff any statement Foggy makes to this point about how his actions affected other. Those are major problems if maintains group order and harmony, and valuing the others in the group over ideal is your view of strong morality.

There's a disconnect there. It is not simple on either side.

Being more Gilligan myself, I don't see Matt repeatedly giving Foggy chances to get out as a positive thing, or even an in anyway respectful thing as others do. Yes, he's saying, if you disagree, and this bothers you, you are free to follow your own conscience and leave, but it shows just how fundamentally he misunderstands Foggy. Leaving is the exact thing that would be the worst thing Foggy could do according to his value system. The most against his conscience. Instead I see him repeatedly devaluing his relationship with Foggy, by being willing to end it so flippantly. So much so, that eventually Foggy stops trying for as hard for a while, because things have fallen that far.

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