daredevilkink | The Defenders-only Discussion Post!

Luke getting up so fast after Madame Gao shot him in the head. That bugmed me cause he was out of it just for a bit but he should've stayed down

So very true. Matt was always the instigator about not going corporate.

Stick was there for virtually no reason, and his character served little to no purpose. He also died for no reason.

well I mean, someone had to explain everything to the defenders.
and elektra killed stick to reclaim part of her identity, so there's that I suppose.

(Crossposted to devilofmidtownwest.tumblr.com)

Best Scene

When Karen is being super patronizing to Matt and he tells her to suck it

Worst Scene

Really, any featuring only Danny and Colleen

Best Fight

Luke vs. Danny

Worst Fight

Danny vs. Elektra (the first time)

Best Group Fight

Hallway at Midland Circle

Worst Group Fight

Parking Garage at Midland Circle where the Hand just bailed so the plot could go on

Saddest Fake Death

Matt

Saddest Real Death

Stick

Death I Should Have Seen Coming a Mile Away

Alexandra (When will I learn?)

Amount that Marvel Needs to Dial Back the “I need you to tell me what’s going on/You wouldn’t believe me if I told you” Speeches

1000%

Villain I Rooted for the Most

Madame Gao

Disappointment (But Not Surprise) that Stick Failed to Kill Danny

High

Practicality of Stick’s Decision

Also High

1 Time I Cheered at the Screen

When Misty finally got her arm cut off (Sorry Misty)

Biggest Tease

Maggie

Biggest McGuffin

Dragon skeletons?!?

Weirdest Scene

Murakami kills a bear abroad and then guts it in a Manhattan high rise apartment

Fate of Kun’lun

After 21 hours of Iron Fist-related material, still unknown

Best Mom

That murdered kid’s mom

Worst Mom

Alexandra and her first daughter

Best Dad

Jack Murdock (wow there’s a real lack of dads on this show)

Worst Dad

Stick (but he owns it)

Most Inexplicable Filming Location

Elektra’s burial plot in a Jewish graveyard

Most Inappropriate Image to a New Yorker

A tall office building in Manhattan exploding, burning, and then collapsing on itself

All I Have to Say About That

This time it WAS an inside job

Seconds That It Takes People to Realize Danny Rand is a Bitch Ass Punk

5

People Committing Suicide in Front of Jessica?

Of Course

Best Non-Defender Defender

Colleen Wing

Best Monologue

Matt talking to the kid in a wheelchair

Worst Monologue

Bakuto talking to Colleen (all of the times really)

Lovable Defenders Most Cool with Watching Someone Get Decapitated

All of them, apparently

Least Blood

Sowande

Newest Accent on an Old Character
British Elektra

How Easy It is to Kill the Five Fingers of the Hand

Super easy it seems like

Sword I Wish Elektra Had Chosen

The Final Fantasy VII buster sword that she walked right past

Times I said, “Nope, Nope, That’s Not Correct” About Something Asian

Only three!

Soviet Russia’s Biggest Mistake

Building Chernobyl Reactor #4 over dragon bones. Call before you dig!

Thought I Feel Most Guilty About

“Wow, Elden Henson’s got a lot of acne scars.”

Best Bender

Madame Gao (Earth/Metal)

Calmest (and Therefore Most Boring) Talk Radio Host

Seriously how does Trish even have a show?

New York-based “People with Abilities” That Remained Uncontacted

The Avengers

Best Place in New York to Spend Multiple Days without Food, Sleep, or a Change of Clothes and Still Look Fabulous

The Harlem Police Precinct

Most Inaccurate Fact about New York

“Hey, at least the rent is cheap.”

I'm going at the series more slowly, so I just got to this episode. I liked the expression on Danny's face after Luke's lecture--it was like all of a sudden he actually started to think with his brain, not his fists. Oh...that makes sense, go after the top, because that's a thing I can do with the resources I haven't been using. (Because Luke's right, Danny's not a neighbor to the victims, nor is he a PI despite his attempts to act like one in trailing the Hand in the time between shows. I'm looking forward to when the team gets to combine their resources/skill sets outside of battle, although they did pretty well in battle this episode).

Edited 2017-08-28 03:04 (UTC)

Yeah, but explaining the plot is never a good reason to spring out a new character out of nowhere. Stick had no other role to fulfill, nothing else to do, and it was really obvious. He just sat in a room and occasionally said something, letting the kids do all the work - doesn't seem like him. He lost a hand, sure, but if being blind didn't stop him, I can't imagine this would.

His role was empty - and then he was dead. He spent what, five, six episodes sticking around? His character wasn't explored even for a minute. We spent six hours watching him sit and we know just as much about him as we did in the beginning. Killing him off was stupid - now his character will *never* be explored. This kind of thing was fine with Wesley, but Stick has emotional ties to two major characters AND their backstories. Cutting that short for no real reason is just bad writing.

Why does the language thing need an explanation? They presented K'un Lun as a multicultural place, with people who have made 'pilgrimages' there from all over the world. None of the members of the Hand were born there, it is mentioned that they returned to their home countries when they were banished. Danny also spoke English with Davos, who was born there, so it is not unreasonable to assume that English is likely taught and spoken in K'un Lun, alongside many other languages.

I laughed my ass off at all of this. However...

The "the rent is cheap" thing was from what I got out of it intentionally a joke about how irl it isn't and calling attention to the fact that MCU NYC is cheap because of things like dragon fossil-related earthquake risk. Which is one of the funniest jokes in the series, really.

And honestly... if NYC in the real world did get destroyed or put you at risk or have as much crime as in the Marvel Universe? I suspect that cheap rent and low property values would be one result. In addition to reduced city serviced since the city would always be teetering on a 70's style brink of bankruptcy just trying to provide constant disaster relief and continual rebuilding of neighborhoods.

Hey, fun! I don't remember the show in *nearly* as much detail as you do, it seems, and I don't think I can mange all of those, but here:

Best Scene: Luke's speech about Danny's (white) privilege

Worst Scene: wow, that's hard to choose (sorry fans)

Most Disappointing Scene: Matt's confession scene (now you know who's writing!)

Best Fight/Worst fight: I don't really care, but they lasted too long

Best Group Fight: There *was* a good group fight, that one time

Worst Group Fight: I don't remember

Death I minded the most: Matt until we knew that it's fake (new season!), Stick afterwards (why?!)

Death I didn't mind at all: Alexandra (go for it, Electra!)

The amount of time Stick is spending sitting on his ass staring at a wall: too much

Villain that should just shut up and disappear: Bakuto

The scene that must have been dropped from an alternate universe: Matt people-deserve-another-chance Murdock arguing to blow up a building full of Hand's people

Fate of New York: frustrated as ever

Best friend: Malcolm (will work for no pay, try to get you to manage your life, endure insults and repeated throwing out, then put plaster on bullet holes in your apartment)

Worst friend: Claire not even talking to Matt, seems totally okay with him dying

Best enemy: Electra who doesn't kill Matt but would probably have sex with him if he asked

Worst enemy: Bakuto trying to bore Coleen to death

The character that could make doing nothing look badass: Stick, but Alexandra almost pulled it off, too

What a European is thinking watching Marvel TV: there's a guy with a GLOWING FIST?

Seconds That It Takes People to Realize Danny Rand is a Bitch Ass Punk: 0, we know that already

Is every black man connected to Luke Cage still a criminal?: Of Course

Best Non-Defender Defender: Stick

What I'm thinking right now: wow, this list is long

Best Monologue: still Luke's rant about white privilege

Worst Monologue: Bakuto talking to Colleen (can't argue with that)

The amount of collateral damage when blowing up a tall building in a highly populated city area: zero, apparently

How easy it is to defeat the Hand: do they even need defeating?

Weapons that Electra didn't get: bows, spears, billy clubs, that Asian stick thing, and oh right, guns

The Black Sky supernatural power: not being dead, I guess

Things that you probably shouldn't ingest: dragon bones

Good reasons for the police to ignore a crime: when it's something subtle, like blowing up a building

Most unwanted ally in New York: men in tights (and capes)

What I should add: ...and that one guy who ends up naked

Best way to hide your identity as a costumed hero: run away fro a precinct full of police officers with three recognized individuals, then show up with all three of them in your mask and costume

Best coincidence to not need to explain to the police: how a blind lawyer you kidnapped from a precinct is dead now

Best thing to say to Jessica Jones when you don't want her to listen: "I care about you."

...wow, this took a long time. I'm regretting my life choices now.

Wasn't Kun Lun sealed off for fifteen years? That pretty much guarantees no pilgrimages.

Yeah, but it has been open on and off for MILLENIA. You can't tell me there aren't still people there from before, not to mention the descendants of pilgrims who never left.

Probably for the same reason he saved Electra's life in DD s.2, only to try to kill her like two episodes later... for reasons he knew since she was a kid.

So, yeah.

While I agree that Matt was the one who was idealistically in favor or pro-bono work, and only representing the innocent, which Foggy followed him in, but Foggy had his own form of idealism. He believed in the neighborhood, in taking care of people, and in second chances.

Look at the way he talked about the people in Josie's, or the way he fixed Mrs. Cardenas' sink, or he ran through a building looking for injured people WHILE IMPALED. That wasn't Matt or his influence, that was who FOGGY was, and he seems a little colder and less likely to get his hands dirty. It's sad, because Foggy was a roll up his sleeves and take care of his neighbors type, and that seems to have fallen by the wayside as he's found success.

I can't imagine a place that no one seems to have heard about has a lot of visitors, no. Maybe in the past, when the knowledge of Kun Lun's existence was more common. But languages change, and descendants stop speaking the original language of their family very quickly. So any languages actively used in Kun Lun would likely be very, very different to their earthly counterparts.

Also, I'm sorry, but I see no reason for off-world monks to teach English in particular. Maybe Chinese or Tibetan, since Kun Lun is generally portrayed as being closely tied to those cultures. But like you said, Kun Lun has been around for millenia. English, especially in its modern version, doesn't even blip on their radar.

Um, if Foggy is only motivated by concern for Matt like you say, if everything he does regarding Matt are based on how much he cares about Matt, then why hasn't he been in touch with Matt for so long? Per Defenders, the only time Foggy checks in with Matt is when Matt's possibly backsliding into Daredevil. Do you think Matt doesn't see this, that this is what brings Foggy to see Matt? I'm just a viewer but my first question was why is this the first time they've gotten together in this long if they're friends, why does Matt sound so grateful, and the show is making the point that THIS is what brings them together. Not friendship, but lack of trust over how Matt is living his life. Foggy saying that Matt doesn't tell him anything is exactly what the show is selling for a reason, because Matt has finally shut Foggy out, or is still trying to (that Foggy still has a key to Matt's apartment is symbolic). But Foggy keeps coming back into Matt's life and every time he does it, it comes with strings or demands. Matt definitely lies or keeps secrets about so much. This isn't something you're born doing, it's something you learn by nurture, and Matt's used it as a survival tool because his life has proven that people only want him if he's useful or giving them what they want. He really does have massive trust issues. That's half the message of Defenders, isn't it? About trust? The other half of the message is about acceptance. Jessica Jones calls Matt out on his past, his abandonment issues, underscores everything with acceptance and offers trust, and she does it with shocking consideration and care, all in under five minutes. How different would things be if Karen and Foggy did this?

I'm not hating on Foggy at all, I love Foggy and I want him and Matt to be friends, but should they be? I've seen some people arguing that Matt needs to stop putting his friends in danger, but he's tried to do exactly that by stepping away from them, and people say well, he needs to stop being Daredevil then, and Matt did that, too, but still some say Matt didn't make an effort in trying to do what his friends wanted. The showrunners have talked about how all these people in Matt's life exert control on him, from Karen and Foggy to Stick, Elektra and Frank cycle through this too. Everybody wants Matt to change, they want him to conform to what they need him to be rather than what Matt needs to be. Foggy is included in that list, and this is where I question, in what world is that ever going to be a good friendship? From the beginning of the show, Matt's wanted acceptance, and Foggy's wanted Matt to be just 'his friend', no DD. As Stick said, they're both disappointed.

Matt doesn't trust Foggy any more than Foggy trusts Matt. Foggy tries to get Matt to trust him by saying he can tell Foggy things when we've had so many episodes that outline how this isn't true, and every time Matt tells Foggy the truth, Foggy makes him pay for it. They love each other, and they want to love each other and I guess that's the really important part, but right now they're just hurting each other. As much as I want them to be together and to be real friends, it's never going to work as they are. They both have to make a lot of changes but the big ones are trust and acceptance on Foggy's part and trust and honesty on Matt's side. It does seem like if Foggy can trust and accept DD, then Matt might manage the trust and honesty part. Those things go hand in hand.

Agreed. They all have strengths and weaknesses, but them coming together was a nice way to combine their resources in, and out of, a fight.

THIS. And also he probably can't believe Foggy brought it to him. That is a huge deal on Foggy's part, even if Foggy says he's doing it to keep Matt and Daredevil separate.

Am I the only one that was honestly so angry when Claire went to China to help kidnap Gao? And she's using those silly bear claw things to hurt people? She's changed so much since DD1.

LOL nice Aliens nod there. But ARE THEY REALLY DEAD? The only way the Hand don't come back to life--if they're resurrected already-- is if you cut off their head. There were three different Hand in that hole with Matt when the building came down, and all three of them had their heads attached to their bodies. And SOMEONE got Matt out.

Is it terrible that I hope Gao lived?

Yes, this is what I mean when I said he's not being true to his best self. Say what you will about the Matt and Foggy friendship but Matt did bring out a better side of Foggy, the side you mention, even when Foggy was rolling his eyes about it or making comments like referring to Matt as his 'soft-hearted partner'. And it seems fair to attribute Foggy's idealism to Matt's influence since it's not Foggy's default, and now that Matt's out of Foggy's life, Foggy's super jazzed about money and sex and power (the WAY he touts his power firm, ugh) and idek who he is anymore.

I don't think it was a matter of training or willingness, Trish was just too far away from Jessica to help her. She was on the ground and by the time she got up and got over there, Jessica would have been dead. The laws of time and space can only be bent so much, even by a comic book genre show lol

I thought it was meant to rub people the wrong way? At least a little? Defenders is about how the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Luke has sympathy for this poor kid who is covering up murders, and it's underscored with privilege, but a few episodes later, LUKE is the one who's suddenly guilty of covering up a murder. He calls Stick out on it, but make no mistake, he allows it to happen and now he's an accessory. The best part about this, or the worst maybe, is that Luke walks away and pretends to know nothing about it, which has continued to bother the helllll out of me. It's not unwarranted, but there are some real good reasons why these terrible things happen to good people. And it's given me a lot of food for thought. The writers get a lot of shit for these episodes and with fair reason, but there are some gems buried in all the crap.

We got that amazing flashback to Stick and Elektra talking about Matt, and how instead of Elektra changing Matt, he changed her. What's not spoken of, what I love, is that Matt did this to Stick too. Something we never were sure about was Stick and Matt, whether he actually cared about him or was just using him, manipulating Matt. We got some points in DD2 where Stick is making it known by his actions and what he says to others that Matt is really important to him, and we know he thought of Elektra as his, but until Defenders I still questioned whether Stick loved Matty. And he does. He did. In his discussion with Luke, he actually points out Matt as family (the same word Foggy finally uses on Matt and that's when I should have known this would all go downhill), and then he adds Elektra's name to that, too. So it looks like Stick loved Matt. Yes, he treated Matt like shit, he lied and manipulated him for years, half of the fucked up emotional baggage and trust issues Matt has can be blamed squarely on Stick, but I'm comforted a little by knowing that Stick was probably just as fucked up because he loved Matty. He never intended to, never wanted to, but he did. So that flashback discussion with Elektra, that discussion with Luke, those things made me glad Stick was in the series.

Although I'm still angry Matt didn't even get to cry or mourn properly, he couldn't even have a full minute to breakdown before he had to get himself under control. :c

OMG Elden's face. Are those acne scars? I've honestly never noticed them before but he was such a different person that I thought maybe the scars were indicative of that, like he was a crappy skrull or something lol. When he goes to give Matt the suit in the precinct, Foggy looked so different I distrusted him! I thought maybe it's a trick! That's how different he was! God, and now I feel bad because I didn't know if it was the show doing it intentionally and really it's just acne scars.

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