daredevilkink | Prompt Post #4

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Prompt Post #4

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I was the one who responded about beware the comics earlier, and I just want to clarify.

Yes, all comics have had issues with sexism the further back you go. But even now, Matt has a very different history with women than a lot of the other Marvel heroes.

What I mean is: Tony's always had Pepper, and Thor's kinda always had Jane, and Steve's usually had Sharon. Matt's version of that central woman in his life left him because she couldn't handle his crap, fell into prostitution and drugs and then died. And in the meantime, any woman who has had close contact with them he has either ruined or had no interest in committing to, going right up into some of the ways he treats his new love interest Kirsten McDuffie now. In fact, his arc with her is in some respects a clear attempt by him to break his own horrible pattern.

And, don't forget that Matt's also unique among the other heroes in that he's one of the ONLY ones I can think of whose father was the heroic/saintly one and whose mother rejected him. So he has some pretty serious women/mother issues. It's why Foggy fills the role of the Girl Friday in his comics basically, which is unusual.

Just to clarify, again. It's worth thinking about, I think.

And I think the show has been pretty conscious of that comics history in how it portrayed his relationship with not just Karen, but Claire too.

I have thought about both versions of Matt and their interactions with women waaaay too much,basically.

Matt's response to Claire (in the show) was particularly interesting to me because it's like... for lack of a better phrase, he wanted to keep her. Y'know?

"Yeah, just stay at my apartment and don't leave until I figure things out for you."

Like, Matt... honey. No. XD;;

And Claire basically decides that for herself by first going back to work and then deciding to distance herself from him by leaving town later.

Objection. ;) I have an alternate pov. He wasn't trying to keep her in a barefoot and pregnant relationship, he was trying to keep her safe and give her a place to stay that nobody knew about. Does he overstep by asking her to stay? Sure, but what was the alternative? Treating her injuries and sending her back to her place? Does he force her to stay? No, and she obvs leaves later, though I was a little bothered that they'd known each other for 2 weeks and Claire threw out that quasi ultimatum about Matt needing to be someone different before she could fall in love with him. She knows who he is, what he's capable of, what he does, she's been supportive up to a point, but one kiss and suddenly she's throwing out something of a challenge. Matt is the one who torpedoed whatever chance they had at a relationship though when he agreed with her, and walked out. He apologizes for it later, but after everything we've seen on the show, I absolutely buy that he'd rather suffer being lonely than have a relationship with her and see her be hurt for it (again). It broke my heart when Matt said goodbye to Claire, GOODBYE like he was going to be dead soon, and I think that's what made Claire leave, finally understanding that Matt's not going to stop putting on the suit. I'm just glad they split on good terms, and I look forward to seeing her in JJones or especially with Luke Cage, since she's his ex.

i think also this has to do with the fact that anything frank miller touches turns to shit. i mean, i respect and love the lovely old guy that runs my local comic book store, but that isn't going to make me believe that frank miller isn't a bad writer, a terrible artist, and quite frankly a total nutcase. sure, there's been sexism in comics but miller's sexism goes beyond typical damsel in distress stuff written previously. for example pretty much all of the awful stuff that happens to karen is a direct result of his writing. frank miller ALSO was responsible for bruce wayne's infamous "i do what i want! i'm the goddamn batman!" line, for what it's worth.

i think what this all boils down to is sure, sexism has happened in the past but it took a turn for the dark and implicitly violent when frank miller was handed the reigns. i mean, the guy's typical M.O. is to write a man who is powerful and can do whatever he pleases because he's a hero and everyone knows heroes don't have to be responsible for the shitstorm their actions may cause, and then to write every woman that man is connected to as the bearer of that man's consequences. karen gets tired of being daredevil's girlfriend; karen moves to california in an attempt to establish her own career as something other than matt murdock's secretary; karen fails and suffers for it. what miller does is he makes women suffer both ways; if they try to stay with their superhero boyfriends they'll probably die, and if they try to leave they are punished for trying to be their own people. and THEN they'll probably die.

this reply got waaaay out of hand and i'm sorry it's so long! but yeah, i'm really hoping karen is going to get treated as a brave person who can do her own shit without being made to suffer for it. as deborah ann woll put it herself, karen could walk into the same alley that matt walks into but people won't think karen is able to handle herself. keep in mind that karen is the same person that saved herself by basically clawing a guard's eye out. she may not be a super ninja but she is far more capable than matt or any of the silver age writers gave her credit for.

-pets you and plies you with cupcakes-

I was ranting to a coworker about this very issue on our commute to work this morning, although without naming specific names (because I am bad with them and only started paying attention to who wrote what in like the last year).

STRONG WOMEN WHO ARE NOT DEFINED BY THEIR SUPERHERO BOYFRIENDS.
STRONG WOMEN WHO MAKE DECISIONS FOR THEMSELVES (that may or may not have anything to do with said superhero boyfriend) AND DO JUST FINE
VULNERABLE WOMEN WHO CAN AND DO BITE BACK BECAUSE WOMEN ARE NOT ONE-DIMENSIONAL PERSONALITIES
NORMAL WOMEN WITH NORMAL STRENGTHS AND NORMAL WEAKNESSES AND A HEALTHY MIX OF SUCCESS AND FAILURE

Person from above again. I agree wholeheartedly about Miller. I do.

(But please, can we not forget though that Miller did create Elektra. So I hear the Karen complaints, but let's just not forget that. Yes, she's problematic, but she's also awesome and generally treated as Matt's equal or better).

However, I am not just talking about the Miller era when I talk about Matt and women. Regardless of if Miller started it or not, when you look at even what Bendis, Smith, Brubaker and even Waid have done with the character, he is not someone whose sexism can be chalked up to the old boys club of comics.

I think that there are elements built into Matt's character that are extremely problematic but also realistic and interesting when it comes to women. Here you have a guy whose mother abandoned him, who was raised by nuns, and who doesn't have the same sort of close female friend/love interest-type characters who other heroes get the luxury of.

He has an ex-wife who literally got driven mad because of him, who when she tried to divorce him played the "but I'm Catholic" card solely to manipulate her into staying and wouldn't sign the papers, who then tried so desperately to keep control of her even when she was institutionalized that Foggy had to talk sense into him, as Foggy has had to do with him in relation to women many times throughout the run of the comic. That's not Miller - that's Bendis and Brubaker, both of whom have shown themselves to be open-minded and thoughtful writers when it comes to female characters in other stuff they've worked on. That arc literally ends with Matt recognizing that he messed everything up and apologizing to her for loving her to begin with, because what happened between them was his fault.

And then, with Kirstie under Waid's run, you get a version of Matt who is overcoming very serious depression and mental health issues and makes a clear choice to break his previous cycles with women by being honest with her and by being different.

So I think it's more purposeful and a different legacy than with some of the other ways sexism has had an impact on other characters. And I do feel like the show gets that, but is doing it in a way that's less about making Karen a victim, which I am onboard with. As the person above points out, there's a definite reason that Claire didn't want anything to do with a relationship with Matt, and I never took it as being only because he's Daredevil.

oh for sure! bendis doesn't get a free pass and i think brubaker was the guy that wrote that tired diatribe about nat romanov from matt's pov, but i could be wrong. frankly i'm still upset with bendis for having jean grey out bobby drake as bisexual (i say bisexual because jean grey's comment about bobby being gay was demeaning and dismissive) and then deflecting when criticized about it. i really liked waid's run because you have characters like kirsten and foggy telling matt "no, don't do that, that's a bad idea," but of course matt still does it because he's MATT but for once his friends turn out to be right? like, of course matt has been right during waid's run (like the issues where foggy thought matt was keeping his father's bones in his desk drawer when they were put there without his knowledge) but matt's not ALWAYS right, and it's refreshing that matt can be in the wrong without there being a huge fuss about it.

AYRT again

I don't think Bendis or Brubaker were being inadvertently sexist by having Matt interact with women the way he does in their runs, so I don't think they need a pass. I think that there's a very purposefully written aspect of Matt's personality, one that goes along with the Catholic guilt, undercurrent of violent rage, egotism and need to be in control of situations that he exhibits, that leads to him treating women pretty poorly (and people including Foggy pretty poorly at times too).

I love Matt as much as anyone here, but I appreciate the level of complexity of his character and the way different writers have approached him over the years but kept him consistent.

And to the people above who are having issues with Karen Page's behaviour, I say the same thing. I think that her character is very messed up in the comics and someone who was unfortunately often a victim, but who even when she wasn't was written as someone who makes impulsive or poor choices and has an interesting past. So I have faith that the problematic aspects of her personality are ones that the show will face head on and deal with.

Sometimes the issues people have with characters, the objections and outrages and judgment of their actions, are exactly what make them so messy and interesting to watch.

To be fair, Matt never "ruined" any of the women he's dated. As Elektra herself pointed out, a person can only take responsibility for the deaths they cause with their own hand. Karen's fall into pornography and drugs happened well after her break-up with Matt, and had nothing to do with him (the last time he'd seen her, on an adventure with Ghost Rider, she'd been a successful actress). Black Widow, Elektra and Echo all maintain friendly relations with him. Heather Glenn (the woman who wanted to be a CEO) was a victim of bad writing and worse characterization. Milla Donovan is perhaps the one who comes closest, but even she chose to pursue him, break-up with him, and then return to him. She wasn't without agency. That's not to say Matt Murdock doesn't have issues with women, but that the issues he has are a lot more complicated than is generally shown in superhero comics.

I'm not sure why writers chose Daredevil to be the hero with the worst love-life. Honestly, I find it a bit strange. Maybe it is partly because of the abandonment issues he has with his mother. Maybe it's also to be Marvel's counter-point to DC's Batman. It's kind of sad because he's a hero that could be super-inspiring for kids if his comics weren't so hell-bent on being dark and edgy.

Sorry, I've gone on for far too long...

I agree with you, nonnie, thank you for speaking out.

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Prompt Post #4

Re: Matt and Karen: She finally tells him off for how he talks to her.

Re: Matt and Karen: She finally tells him off for how he talks to her.

Re: Matt and Karen: She finally tells him off for how he talks to her.

Re: Matt and Karen: She finally tells him off for how he talks to her.

Re: Matt and Karen: She finally tells him off for how he talks to her.

Re: Matt and Karen: She finally tells him off for how he talks to her.

Re: Matt and Karen: She finally tells him off for how he talks to her.

Re: Matt and Karen: She finally tells him off for how he talks to her.

Re: Matt and Karen: She finally tells him off for how he talks to her.

Re: Matt and Karen: She finally tells him off for how he talks to her.