daredevilkink | Discussion/Off-Topic Post #1

Okay, time for an example.

Swiggity_swydra_fuck_hydra. They're one of the slavefic authors and they've just started crossposting their work onto AO3 after working on their fic for a few months on the meme.

As of this morning, that one fic has clocked in at 89k words. 89k words! That is nuts. (by which I mean, 'dude, IMPRESSIVE, wow'.)

But follow me now - that means that there has been nearly ninety thousand words on the kinkmeme from only one author. That's the kind of off-balance thing people are pointing out. They're saying, 'yeah, there's a lot of slavefic on the meme right now but it's only being written by a few people' because it's true.

89k! Put that in perspective - most fics don't break 1k, even fewer get up to 5k. Just looking at the volume of work being done, that means it looks like there's anywhere between 18 to 90 people creating content on the meme. But there's not. It's one person who is just tearing it up right now. (to be absolutely clear, that was a compliment.)

And that's only one of the slavefic WIPs running right now. It doesn't include the other fics, or the comments on each chapter as they come out. For someone looking at the meme from the outside (and the inside, tbh) it looks like an army of slavefic fans have happily gathered here and are grinding out content like a well oiled machine. But it's not an army. It's a few very prolific writers and the fans who love what they're doing. And that's not a bad thing! Keep doing your thing!

But it's also not a bad thing to point out that hey, the numbers are a bit skewed here.

DA, also slavery-AU filler - true, doesn't *have* to be a bad thing to point out that the slave!fills are pretty disproportional to the other fills in both length, as well as consistency and frequency of updates. But, hm, what is...the point, I guess, I'm wondering? Like, if someone who points this imbalance out does so because they'd like to read something else other than Matt in a collar being treated to nice things (why would you ever want to read anything else I don't understand you people) then that...kinda doesn't help their cause at all. Like, a post saying 'wow, there sure is a a lot of slave!fic' doesn't really *do* anything to create a bigger variety of prompts that may inspire a filler. It's just sort of...there. I'm guessing I'm wondering what the poster was hoping for with that post? I don't think it's going to make people write fic they wouldn't have written anyway. Only prompts and prompt discussion can do that.

As a slavefic fan, this kind of put things into a good perspective for me.

I wonder if the above comment's phrasing is very different and that's why it's coming off better--I mean, 'only a few people writing' vs 'only a few people enjoying' is a totally different sentiment. Only a few people writing (because hey, there aren't quite that many different slave AUs) is facts.

I guess the way I get the resentful atmosphere is that some other posts have implied that it's not just a few people writing slavefic, that it's just a few people enjoying slavefic. Like, the latter seems to have this connotation to me of 'it's just those couple of people, the rest of us have more normal tastes', when really, there's more than just three people who like the slavefics.

And there's also probably a ton of overlap between people who are glorying in the slavefic and people who are loving all the gen and the pokemon AUs and the Fratt and so on. (I know I love all sorts!)

I dunno, I just feel like maybe some people who are really really squicked out by slavefic could take a good step back and just..not let their feelings about the AU come out as 'please stop writing' tones.

Because to me, stuff like 'I can't believe the meme is just slavefic right now' is both understandable in a way (I'd be annoyed if there was *solely* a/b/o) but also comes off as 'stop having fun/stop writing', which kind of goes against the spirit of a kink meme and the way that the rest of the Daredevil kink meme in general is all about lots of comments and lots of prompts and lots of fills and just general *fun*.

(That, and the 'overexaggeration' anon below, don't post again like that, yeah? Posts like that don't help.)

I dunno, I just feel like maybe some people who are really really squicked out by slavefic could take a good step back and just..not let their feelings about the AU come out as 'please stop writing' tones.

*hands* Look, I mean no disrespect, but I think this is a case of assumptions running away with people. It's like the thought pattern here is going from:

'These people are asking questions about my Thing' --> 'they must be questioning why my Thing exists' --> 'they are being passive-aggressively hostile to my Thing' --> 'that means they must be really, really squicked out by my Thing' --> 'therefore every comment not gung-ho for my Thing is really a veiled complaint about me enjoying my Thing.'

Like...everything past that first step is a defensive assumption that just leads into another defensive assumption until the whole world must want you to stop doing your Thing.

Once you assume hostility EVERYTHING will sound hostile, even if it's not. Seriously, the harshest reactions I've seen to slavefic have been 'I don't read it' and 'It's not my cup of tea.' Assumptions that lead you into a downward spiral are something to guard against.

As the aforementioned author, wow, thank you for being so nice! I'm kind of startled that *anyone* reads it, tbh, it sort of...became its own thing.

But I guess my thing is, I'm always really unsure of what people *want* when they post that there's only a couple of people writing slavefic or the meme is all slavefic.

Like, in the way that some anons have said it, I can tell that they want more non-slavefic, but just saying 'stop having fun' doesn't make anyone want to write or read more non-slavefic, it makes slavefic fans defensive and other people feel like the meme is already saturated with Not Their Content and then not post.

I guess what I take away from a lot of it is that, like, do people want me or other fillers to not crosspost to the meme? Do they want slavefics to end up on their own post? Do they just not know about how to generate more discussion/fills/prompts that are more to their taste? (It's probably the last one, I'm just a cynic.)

And I have no objection to non-slavefic, to get that out of the way. I love it, I've written some of it (daddy kink Matt/Frank), I read it all the time. Nobody has to be converted. You can hate slavefic all you want, that's perfectly fine. We're not saying that more non-slavefic is a bad thing.

But what I guess I'm saying is okay, meme's skewed, what do you want to do about it? Because the repeating of 'it's only a few people' isn't very productive. This is a kink meme. People shouldn't have to feel defensive about their kinks.

What this whole conversation sounds like to me:

Person A goes to an all-you-can-eat buffet. To their surprise, they find that Person B and a few of their friends have proudly filled the place with caviar. Person A has no problems with caviar - they quite enjoy the delicacy when they’ve tried it, though they tend to be a meat-and-potatoes kind of person. But this - this is a lot of caviar.

Person A: That…is a lot of caviar.
Person B: I’m sorry?
Person A: I said, that’s a lot of caviar, haha.
Person B: You got a problem with caviar?
Person A: No, there’s just a lot of it.
Person B: Why are you hating on caviar?
Person A: I don’t hate caviar!
Person B: Then why are you talking about it?
Person A: Because there’s a mountain of caviar right in front of me. It’s a little weird.
Person B: So caviar is weird?
Person A: What, no, I didn’t say that. Caviar is caviar. It’s the mountains of caviar that’s out of the ordinary. You don’t normally see mountains of caviar. That’s kind of worthy of note.
Person B: You need to stop talking shit about caviar.
Person A: …you know what? I just want a burger.
Person B: Burgers are better than caviar now?
Person A: It’s not an either/or situation. You eat your mountains of caviar and I’ll go find my burger.
Person B: You saying we should take our caviar and leave? Or we should just stop eating our caviar?
Person A: I never said that.

Admittedly, my position in this argument is pretty obvious, but I swear to God, this is what this discussion sounds like to me.

I love your analogy. I read slave fic and I agree with your analogy.

I read Person A with Foggy's voice, btw. Just so you know.

Haha, thank you.

I'd compare it more to a potluck where Group B brought a fair amount of curries and are discussing cooking tips, recipe ideas, etc. Person A brought a pie crust. It has potential and some people have expressed interest in it, but no one's decided to make a filling for it.

Person A asks why there's so much activity around the curry.

This is the most excitement the lunchroom has seen in days. Part of it (no one knows how large or small) erupts into chaos as people throw food, jump on tables, yell for order, and many other things. Some people sit perfectly still in their chairs and talk about what a nice lunch it is even as food and chairs go flying past their heads. Some stand guard over their dishes with a switchblade, threatening to cut anyone who looks at it wrong. Some climb on top of things for a better view, eating popcorn and throwing the seeds at people's heads. There are multiple attempts to take surveys and arguments over the motive and methodology of said surveys. Some people are arguing over whether Jupiter or Saturn is the most fuckable planet. It is unclear how they got to that point. Some people sigh and go back to their desks to play minesweeper. Some people remember it as the Great Curry War of '16. Some think it's just another Saturday

The next week, group C comes in with lasagnas and the process begins anew

I love this analogy. It so perfectly sums up fandom in general.

bless you and bless your cow, anon.

Mostly, I just wanted to vent. And to sympathize with someone else who felt the same way. Which is why I did it on the Off-Topic/Discussion Meme, where it would hopefully not feel like an attack to any anon, thread, or story in particular.

...and I'm not the "only a few people" anon, although that comment could be taken to mean, "Individuals have more power than you'd think on this meme! Post your own fills, you whiny slackers, and we'll have more kinds of content! Also, you don't have to be a slavefic (or Pokemon) lover to be on the Daredevil kinkmeme!"

Without, of course, the actual name-calling. (Says the whiny slacker who hasn't actually posted any fills for months, and even then they didn't really fill their prompts. Bleh.)

...although if our whining inspired that lovely Christmas filler, then maybe I'll be proud of being a whiny slacker. Those were beautiful.

In the future, maybe vent about the kinkmeme somewhere that's not the kinkmeme? Because right now it appears to have sparked a whole powder keg of hurt feelings and resentments and pointless complaining about things that aren't against the rules.

For clarification, when you say 'pointless complaining' are you referring to the people who are pointing out that the ratio between content output and the number of fans actually writing/reading it is skewed or the people saying that everyone is getting on their case because they like slave fic? Which one of these arguments is pointless?

Because to me, that's the point of the Discussion post. It's there so we can discuss things.

Also, why would you advise people who have either a legitimate grievance or legitimate issue to talk about it in a place where nobody involved would be able to know about it and thus be aware?

Like, it seems like there are actually constructive things being said here about people's motivations for discussing the number of slavefic fillers, how they came to the meme, and how we can all get along.

If somebody had gone off and just bitched on Tumblr, then nobody would have a chance to air things out and figure out why we're all so tense about it.

I kind of like that the slave AU people have had a chance to express here why they came here and how much they love our meme, that people who maybe didn't realize they were coming off as passive aggressive have a chance to explain what they really meant, and that we can talk about things like warnings, flat meme vs. threaded, and what this post is for in a place where those conversations have an impact.

And personally, I would much rather have people bitch about anything related to me here so I know it's going on than find out about it through someone else on Tumblr. One is much, much ruder imho. Because "other places" are often just as public as the meme at the end of the day.

+100000

I think one of the big reasons why slavefic has caused so much tension is because we haven't cleared the air about warnings, flatmeme, and subject titles. Fandom exists over a lot of platforms, all with its own conventions and silent rules, and it's impossible to expect everyone to be on the same page immediately. I think this whole discussion will go a long way towards avoiding possible future conflicts too.

...huh. You know, that flatmeme thing might be something to look into.

If a slavefic fan is new to the meme, or just doesn’t get/use flatmeme, then that might explain why some of them feel like the comments of 'wow, there's a lot of slavefic' are some sort of unprovoked attack rather than it being like someone saying 'wow, it's really windy today'.

Because in threaded view, it's like you're in your own little house doing your own thing while people in neighboring threads do *their* thing and all of it is mostly separate and self-contained. Commenting on a thread explosion in that kind of environment looks a lot more like sour grapes, especially since you could easily ignore it if you wanted to.

While in flatmeme NOTHING is separate. You get everything all the time, whether you like what's on offer or not. And what flatmemers have been getting the last few months is 100k+ worth of slavefic when for all of the year before that slavefic wasn't even a blip on the radar. That's blink worthy at *least.*

And then the follow up question becomes 'so who's doing all this writing?' And the answer is, 'a relatively small group (in comparison to all the content that's being created) of slavefic fans.' And that's not a judgement. It’s just a mystery solved.

But see, that's the thing. People complain subtly here, and then complain loudly over on their Tumblr, and it's like... we're a small fandom, y'know? I'm pretty sure we all follow each other on Tumblr. So you pair the type of discussions that happen here with the outright disdain on Tumblr and you start to get the full picture.

(I mean, people have the right to complain, I know that. I'm just trying to explain how people might've reached the conclusion that some of the comments here carry a subtle hostility toward a certain kink and certain authors who are writing those fics)

What outright disdain on Tumblr? Cuz you're right, this group does tend to run in the same circles and I haven't seen any of that.

What, do you want actual name-and-shame links or...? Because that sounds like a bad idea all-around.

Personally, I'd rather know if that was actually happening or if it was just an exaggeration of a perceived insult. If it was an actual insult, yeah, okay, point taken. If not, well, it wouldn't be the first time someone has admitted to blowing things out of proportion in this thread.

Seriously though, I think "reached the conclusion" is the key phrase here. Ya'll are making serious assumptions about malicious intent. It's a defensive reflex, okay, but it's wrong. Which others have tried to explain but all that seems to be getting across to the other side is that non-slavefic fans are being passive-agressive in their hate. Which, no.

(and let's be real, okay, there's probably no such thing as a purely non-slavefic fan on this meme anymore for the simple reason that there has been nothing else to read for a while. <--- and that is said with ZERO hostility, because we all know by this point how crap we all are at reading tone online.)

To be fair to the slavefic people, I think they were initially defensive but wanted to know why people seemed to have an issue as much as everyone else was curious who they were.

And they have been taking all this in fairly well. Even today I saw trigger warnings added to a fill.

Yay to this meme, where what could easily be wank turns out to actually be an interesting and thought-provoking conversation where everyone understands each other better.

Three cheers for us! Rational thought and discourse win! (With added fun analogies).

So really I suspect we've all just been misunderstanding the root of the problem. I feel like the people who initially they were bristling towards have now been understood as not malicious and vice versa.

This is 100% the least wanky meme I've ever been on and I'm actually glad I said something about all of this.

Like, goddamn, meme, now I'm getting fuzzy feels from how much I appreciate this place. Pretty much every other meme (apart from the hydra trash meme) would have had so much more wank and it would have turned really personal. But now there's constructive change.

Discussion/Off-Topic Post #1

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