daredevilkink | Discussion/Off-Topic Post #1

THIS. Everyone seems determined to kink-shame the slavefics in the most roundabout way possible (but, surprise! We can totally see what you're all doing)

^ THIS, exactly. It's super obvious when someone says 'it's only a few people' they're just grinding on that (supposedly insignificant) group because they don't like it. Like that's cool, if it's not your thing then move along. Please talk up what you like, be productive instead of... *stop liking what I don't like gif*

ayrt - I'm squeeing about having a rewatch partner. *fist bump*

One of my RL friends started reading the DD comics after watching the show and even she said Matt has some hard core daddy issues in every medium. She went one step further and suggested that maybe that's one of the reasons he tries to be so good for his Father/God, tries to obey those rules and tenets, tries to make Him proud. It reflects a deep desire to be worthy and accepted (into heaven). Does that make God something of a psychological substitute daddy, one he can obey in the absence of his physical father, a daddy who can't be killed (again), etc? I don't know, but I thought it was startling insight and I've been chewing on it ever since she suggested it.

Anyway, I am all kinds of in love with the idea of Matt always trying to subconsciously be adopted by older, powerful men, the ones who demand obedience ~~in bed and out~~, and allowing them too much control but honestly denying it so hard when anybody calls him on it. Foggy. I mean when Foggy calls him on it. Because Foggy would.

Stick really left a mark on Matt, that's for sure. I don't know if you read any comics but Stick in the comics was even harsher with Matt than he was on the show. But he also died protecting Matt, so I have some really conflicted feelings about the mean old bastard. And on the show, omg, watching Matt's fake smile when he tells Stick, 'I guess we were both disappointed' UGHHH MY HEART. Matt can't deny he wanted a substitute father, and even after Stick is such an awful dick to Matt, Matt still wants to impress Stick. He still wants Stick to want him. I'm so verklempt right now.

Anyway, I meant to leave a Stick-related link here for you. In the Marvel comic Contest of Champions (it's a current title - think modern Mortal Kombat where nobody actually wants to fight) there was a stunning moment where not only was Stick revived from the dead to fight in the contest but he ends up being pitted against Elektra. Not his/our Elektra, but an Elektra from another world. An Elektra who is actually Bullseye. And of course Matt/DD (and even Foggy!) makes a cameo and Stick is very not pleased with that turn of events. There are a few pages and spoilers for CoC at the link, and character death, so caveat lector, but if you're feeling it, have at:

http://dichotomystudios.tumblr.com/comics <--***SPOILERS FOR THE SERIES! SPOILERS!***

(Look, I'm pleased any time Marvel vaguely hints that Stick gives a shit about Matt as more than just his Chosen One. Also, those panels are hosted fullsize on pb temporarily and will come down soon.)

So I'm a new anon coming out just to agree with this. Reading a fic of Matt in a slave collar and following the link to the kinkmeme was what brought me here. This is my first kinkmeme ever. Maybe I've only been here a short time but it's so strange to see some very popular slave!Matt fics linking to the kinkmeme and then here on the kinkmeme what I'm reading is some people saying ugh and why and making very roundabout comments how only two or three people like slave fics? Uh no? If that were true there wouldn't be all the current delicious slave Matt fics happening in fandom, right? Those fics brought me and my best friend here. We came for the angsty fics but stayed for the discussions. ^^ Thank you to everyone who isn't ashamed of liking what they like and putting those prompts out there because you basically made my life better lol.

Yes, THIS. Isn't 'YKINMKATO' literally the first rule of the kinkmeme?

You'd think so. But apparently when it comes to slave AUs, it's grounds for pearl-clutching and cauterwauling about how the entire meme is going to the gutters.

Out of curiosity, which fic?

ayrt - Me toooo <3 *fist bump* Keep me updated on whatever episode you're up to, if you like. I'm more just watching whatever looks good rather than rewatching in order now. I have no attention span, lol. I'm probably gonna go for the episodes with the bombings next, just 'cause that's where Fisk condescendingly calls Matt a young man. But I am open to suggestions!

Your friend has a VERY GOOD POINT. Matt does have daddy issues everywhere, with Jack, Stick, why not God too? The whole father metaphor is a big deal in religion, and with the ideas of, like, guidance and obedience... Yesss, I like! :D I need more about Matt's relationship with his God. I want to knowww. I've always enjoyed how much of a role it plays in the show and I wish I could contribute more to this, but I am so un-versed in Catholicism, sorry! ;;

Oh, and speaking of Matt's subconscious daddy issues, BOY DO I HAVE A FIC FOR YOU. Have you read Veneration by WerewolvesAreReal? (It comes with a few warnings to note, and if it's not your thing then I totally understand, though.)
http://archiveofourown.org/works/3848368

As for that comic you linked, !!! wow. I'm right with you, I love the hints that Stick is way more emotionally attached to Matt than he lets on. I'm only reading the more recent comics, so all I've seen firsthand is that flashback where Stick pushes Matt off a roof (where Matt is still so grateful for his training even though he hated Stick's guts, omg), but I have heard about Stick's death and I just. Yep, conflicted feelings everywhere. Oh man. I've also skimmed through the Shadowland arc, and I liked Matt's interactions with Master Izo there too, though Izo definitely seemed much nicer than stick.

Another little thing I noticed from the Stick episode: Stick says Matt is "still afraid to cross that line", with killing people. I just went O__O WHAT. Stick, did you try to turn a 10-year-old into a murderer??

Umm... As one of the people who complained about there only being one type of fic being filled, trust me, there are tropes I hate much worse. It was the lack of variety that got to me--I'm going to be scrolling past the vast majority of what shows up on a kinkmeme, anyhow.

That was over a month ago, and the complaint no longer stands. (Thank goodness!) Now we've even got fills I can enjoy (yay!)-- we've got threads with demonic geese, and gen soulbonds, and Foggy as a BNF, and yes, even the Pokemon fills, all of which appear to be pretty active right now. (I don't know all that much about Pokemon, but man, those art fills are adorable.) Plus, I'm excited about there possibly being more "Daredevil perceived as a robot" and at least theoretically interested in where that "Matt has trigger phrases from Stick" thread may go, although that may change. And there are still about three active slave WIPs, I think, but, y'know, that's what that "Page Down" button is for.

Dude, you should know better by now than to jump to conclusions about tone or the overall intent of a message on the internet. And on an anon meme. Superimposing what YOU think the poster means based on some other comments from some other anons you've seen in a thread from months ago is not "super obvious", it's reaching. Especially when there are people in this very thread saying straight out that what they're pointing out is not an attack. Stop taking it as an attack. Be chill.

And this was supposed to be a thread about the Foggy raping Matt fics, not slavefic in general. That particular theme has shown up in some of the slavefics, but definitely not all of them. The "few people = lots of output" observation applies to a LOT of subtropes on the meme, of which the slavefic is only one. (and not even the one currently under discussion...)

...and cauterwauling about how the entire meme is going to the gutters.

Links or it didn't happen. Where did someone post about slave AUs causing the meme to go to the gutters? Or is this an exaggeration?

I get that people have their backs up when they think people are attacking them, but seriously, stop putting words in other people's mouths. That's causing more drama, more so than any supposed hate (again, links) for slave AUs.

+10000, yes, thank you.

Agree with you about the Only Sane Man thing, that's my cup of tea.

Hey, mods, can you delete the above comment? Now that it is no longer 4AM, I can see that that was overexaggeration.

Okay, time for an example.

Swiggity_swydra_fuck_hydra. They're one of the slavefic authors and they've just started crossposting their work onto AO3 after working on their fic for a few months on the meme.

As of this morning, that one fic has clocked in at 89k words. 89k words! That is nuts. (by which I mean, 'dude, IMPRESSIVE, wow'.)

But follow me now - that means that there has been nearly ninety thousand words on the kinkmeme from only one author. That's the kind of off-balance thing people are pointing out. They're saying, 'yeah, there's a lot of slavefic on the meme right now but it's only being written by a few people' because it's true.

89k! Put that in perspective - most fics don't break 1k, even fewer get up to 5k. Just looking at the volume of work being done, that means it looks like there's anywhere between 18 to 90 people creating content on the meme. But there's not. It's one person who is just tearing it up right now. (to be absolutely clear, that was a compliment.)

And that's only one of the slavefic WIPs running right now. It doesn't include the other fics, or the comments on each chapter as they come out. For someone looking at the meme from the outside (and the inside, tbh) it looks like an army of slavefic fans have happily gathered here and are grinding out content like a well oiled machine. But it's not an army. It's a few very prolific writers and the fans who love what they're doing. And that's not a bad thing! Keep doing your thing!

But it's also not a bad thing to point out that hey, the numbers are a bit skewed here.

No one is saying 'ugh and why.' Absolutely no one has said that. No, I take that back - the only people who have said anything negative about slavefic fans have been the slavefic fans who are defensive because people point out that there aren't actually an army of them on the meme, which is what it looks like right now.

re: the art fills - I know, right?? I'm not even into Pokemon but those are adorable.

I say leave it. It's part of the conversation and there are already replies to it. Taking it out will just throw everything out of context.

DA, also slavery-AU filler - true, doesn't *have* to be a bad thing to point out that the slave!fills are pretty disproportional to the other fills in both length, as well as consistency and frequency of updates. But, hm, what is...the point, I guess, I'm wondering? Like, if someone who points this imbalance out does so because they'd like to read something else other than Matt in a collar being treated to nice things (why would you ever want to read anything else I don't understand you people) then that...kinda doesn't help their cause at all. Like, a post saying 'wow, there sure is a a lot of slave!fic' doesn't really *do* anything to create a bigger variety of prompts that may inspire a filler. It's just sort of...there. I'm guessing I'm wondering what the poster was hoping for with that post? I don't think it's going to make people write fic they wouldn't have written anyway. Only prompts and prompt discussion can do that.

As a slavefic fan, this kind of put things into a good perspective for me.

I wonder if the above comment's phrasing is very different and that's why it's coming off better--I mean, 'only a few people writing' vs 'only a few people enjoying' is a totally different sentiment. Only a few people writing (because hey, there aren't quite that many different slave AUs) is facts.

I guess the way I get the resentful atmosphere is that some other posts have implied that it's not just a few people writing slavefic, that it's just a few people enjoying slavefic. Like, the latter seems to have this connotation to me of 'it's just those couple of people, the rest of us have more normal tastes', when really, there's more than just three people who like the slavefics.

And there's also probably a ton of overlap between people who are glorying in the slavefic and people who are loving all the gen and the pokemon AUs and the Fratt and so on. (I know I love all sorts!)

I dunno, I just feel like maybe some people who are really really squicked out by slavefic could take a good step back and just..not let their feelings about the AU come out as 'please stop writing' tones.

Because to me, stuff like 'I can't believe the meme is just slavefic right now' is both understandable in a way (I'd be annoyed if there was *solely* a/b/o) but also comes off as 'stop having fun/stop writing', which kind of goes against the spirit of a kink meme and the way that the rest of the Daredevil kink meme in general is all about lots of comments and lots of prompts and lots of fills and just general *fun*.

(That, and the 'overexaggeration' anon below, don't post again like that, yeah? Posts like that don't help.)

As the aforementioned author, wow, thank you for being so nice! I'm kind of startled that *anyone* reads it, tbh, it sort of...became its own thing.

But I guess my thing is, I'm always really unsure of what people *want* when they post that there's only a couple of people writing slavefic or the meme is all slavefic.

Like, in the way that some anons have said it, I can tell that they want more non-slavefic, but just saying 'stop having fun' doesn't make anyone want to write or read more non-slavefic, it makes slavefic fans defensive and other people feel like the meme is already saturated with Not Their Content and then not post.

I guess what I take away from a lot of it is that, like, do people want me or other fillers to not crosspost to the meme? Do they want slavefics to end up on their own post? Do they just not know about how to generate more discussion/fills/prompts that are more to their taste? (It's probably the last one, I'm just a cynic.)

And I have no objection to non-slavefic, to get that out of the way. I love it, I've written some of it (daddy kink Matt/Frank), I read it all the time. Nobody has to be converted. You can hate slavefic all you want, that's perfectly fine. We're not saying that more non-slavefic is a bad thing.

But what I guess I'm saying is okay, meme's skewed, what do you want to do about it? Because the repeating of 'it's only a few people' isn't very productive. This is a kink meme. People shouldn't have to feel defensive about their kinks.

What this whole conversation sounds like to me:

Person A goes to an all-you-can-eat buffet. To their surprise, they find that Person B and a few of their friends have proudly filled the place with caviar. Person A has no problems with caviar - they quite enjoy the delicacy when they’ve tried it, though they tend to be a meat-and-potatoes kind of person. But this - this is a lot of caviar.

Person A: That…is a lot of caviar.
Person B: I’m sorry?
Person A: I said, that’s a lot of caviar, haha.
Person B: You got a problem with caviar?
Person A: No, there’s just a lot of it.
Person B: Why are you hating on caviar?
Person A: I don’t hate caviar!
Person B: Then why are you talking about it?
Person A: Because there’s a mountain of caviar right in front of me. It’s a little weird.
Person B: So caviar is weird?
Person A: What, no, I didn’t say that. Caviar is caviar. It’s the mountains of caviar that’s out of the ordinary. You don’t normally see mountains of caviar. That’s kind of worthy of note.
Person B: You need to stop talking shit about caviar.
Person A: …you know what? I just want a burger.
Person B: Burgers are better than caviar now?
Person A: It’s not an either/or situation. You eat your mountains of caviar and I’ll go find my burger.
Person B: You saying we should take our caviar and leave? Or we should just stop eating our caviar?
Person A: I never said that.

Admittedly, my position in this argument is pretty obvious, but I swear to God, this is what this discussion sounds like to me.

I love your analogy. I read slave fic and I agree with your analogy.

I read Person A with Foggy's voice, btw. Just so you know.

^^ I think variety is just something people were missing for a bit on the last post. I don't think anyone really intends it as a slam on the slave AU people, so much as just *sigh* - I guess I'm gonna have to leave for a bit and come back on the next post" or *sigh* - guess I'm not gonna be able to flat meme it for a bit". Especially because even though this meme doesn't require warnings, the common courtesy had been to warn, and because people were also changing titles in addition to removing warnings it was difficult for a while to sort out which were slave AU fills and which weren't when flat meming.

(So for the people above writing the fic saying "What can we really do in this situation?" maybe keeping the original post prompt titles with the fic title underneath in the body and warning in your prompts for rape non/con or clearly stating it's a slavery AU in your prompt headers would help? Again, not complaining and don't have a problem with it at all, but if you do feel there's tension, it could help? I know some of you said you were new to the meme, so you might not have known or realized).

For the record, I do a podcast called The OTPodcast, and in our recent Daredevil ep we did mention the trope for slavefic being popular and speculate as to who's writing and why it was happening in the larger context of the fandom. But I also fully admit in that episode that I was responsible for a lot of those initial prompts, and that even if I wasn't a huge fan of the fics that came out of them I was super impressed with the fact that so many people came out for it and that there were clearly collaborative fills and round robins happening.

And, tbh, I also posted a ton of non-slave AU prompts because the people here are also right that the only real way to attract people to other prompts and conversations is to start them.

So I don't think anyone really is kink-shaming here. I think people just wanted to find a way for the slave AU people to co-exist without feeling like they were all the meme was for a while, and that nobody has a clue how to do that and so people are just getting used to it as a thing.

And I think people were also just confused from the outside by how insular some of the prompts were. Some of what might be making people ask "How many people are there writing it?" is the way that suddenly all the fills were crossing over and integrating with one another, and seemed to have their own in-universe tropes and characters, and even for someone trying to follow those fics it got confusing and a little bit like "What even has this become now?" Like, I suspect it's only a few because of how specific each character was and how the round robins and collaborations were happening, not because I have an issue and want it to only be a few people. It was just interesting to also watch that little sub-community evolve and makes me curious.

TL;DR - Some of the tension here might be because of the way slave AU post headings weren't clear for flat memers, and I don't think anyone is trying to make anyone feel shamed. Keep on keeping on, guys, because what you're doing is actually kind of impressive.

Absolutely.

And the artist keeps saying things like, "Oh, I can't draw backgrounds" or "I can't draw Matt" and I'm like... "I've seen much worse art for sale at cons."

Discussion/Off-Topic Post #1

Re: Foggy rapes Matt???

Re: Foggy rapes Matt???

Re: DD viewing #2139 and noticing new things

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Side note of adoration for random anon