Discussion/Off-Topic Post #1

[ddk_mod]

THIS POST IS NOW CLOSED.

Please head over to Discussion Post #2!

Comments

Re: Does Stick actually care about Matt?

[(Anonymous)]

I think Stick definitely did/does care about Matt, but that it...doesn't really matter? He's a violent, abusive, borderline villainous character who catastrophically fucked up Matt's emotional well-being as a child and then reappeared to verbally abuse and beat up on him some more as an adult. I don't doubt that he thinks he's doing it for the greater good--I don't believe he's behaving that way just for the evulz--but that doesn't justify really anything we've seen him do over the course of the show.

FWIW, I actually think Matt is more aware of how dysfunctional that relationship is than we usually see in fandom. He agrees to work with Stick, but I don't get the impression that he's really motivated by love or the desire for approval (at least not on any conscious level); he just believes that Stick is right about the potential disaster they need to stop. There's very little about their interaction that makes me think Matt is still desperately trying to get Stick's approval and love. I think on some level he wants to prove himself to the old man, but it's more of...like in a 'fuck you' kind of way? You know, like 'see, I'm fine without you, I don't need you, fuck off' kind of way?

Like, it's definitely not healthy, but I'd compare it (in my own experience) to how I've acted around people I know were abusive but can't quite get out of my head, not how I act around people whose approval I genuinely want. There's this tendency to write their relationship as 'Matt thinks how Stick treated him was okay and will do anything to get Stick to love him again', which I just...really don't see in their interactions as adults. There's a lot of (justifiable) anger there on Matt's side.

Re: Does Stick actually care about Matt?

[(Anonymous)]

I completely agree with your first two paragraphs. (I may agree with your third, except that I haven't run across fics depicting their relationship as "Matt thinks how Stick treated him was okay and will do anything to get Stick to love him again" set during the episode "Stick.")

Whether Stick is disgusted by or interested in little Matt's attempts to bond, he'll react in exactly the same way, because he views relationships as inherently distracting and weakening. And he has managed to pass that lesson on to Matt, just as he passed on the lessons about using the senses and meditating and fighting. So I think the important thing about Stick's relationship with Matt is what he tells Karen in "The Ones We Leave Behind": "[Stick] has a way of, uh... getting in your head, you know?" His dad was the man who taught him not to fight, who shaped Matt Murdock, Attorney at Law; this is the man who taught him how to fight, who was instrumental in creating Daredevil. He's not quite so easy to dismiss as Matt wants him to be.

I'm not saying Matt is eager to win Stick's love in the episode "Stick," but I am saying that it probably took Matt a lot of time and a lot of years to be able to see Stick as clearly as he does there, and even then he still agrees to help Stick; I can see him as still hoping for his approval somehow here, or as him just reacting to a threat to the city he's trying to protect. I definitely don't have any issue with writers who want to expand on "Yeah, I've learned a lot since you've been gone," and that's where I've hit the stories where Matt initially assumes that how Stick treated him was fine.

Re: Does Stick actually care about Matt?

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I think you can probably interpret it either way--I kind of see kid!Matt as someone who would resort to anger pretty quickly. I think after the initial hurt, he would get mad and then use the anger as a cover for the lingering damage (of which there is clearly quite a lot). But the other interpretation works as well; it's just not the one I prefer. I've also seen that trope show up in fics about Matt as an adult in the context of Foggy helping him sort out his emotional damage, which is something I think only works in small doses (but everyone's going to draw that line in a different spot, so ymmv).

I definitely agree about the contrast between his relationships with his dad and with Stick and the effects they had on him. Jack Murdock created Matthew Murdock, Attorney at Law; Stick created Daredevil.

Re: Does Stick actually care about Matt?

[(Anonymous)]

I am saying that it probably took Matt a lot of time and a lot of years to be able to see Stick as clearly as he does there, and even then he still agrees to help Stick; I can see him as still hoping for his approval somehow here

nayrt

That's how I see him in that scene, too, because you can see Matt wants to cold shoulder Stick from the start, he's still a hurt little boy over Stick leaving, and it looks like he thaws a tiny bit when Stick say he's legit proud of Matty, and then Stick pushes Matt's buttons about Jack just to test his control. And once Stick laughs about Matt learning to get out of the hold, Matt is still angry, but when Stick acknowledges he's a dick and asks for beer? GDI Matt smiles at him like Stick is a long lost friend. And then Matt catches himself and puts the smile away awkwardly. But he does go on to seek validation from Stick in that whole scene, he wants Stick to say he needs Matt, that he finds worth in Matt, and Stick does. And everything is good for two minutes until Stick kills Black Sky and Matt's just uuuugh FML! all over again. It really has to suck to be Matt Murdock with Stick as the mentor who won't GO AWAY.

I don't know how much of the comics will make it into the MCU because they've already done a really good job of playing mashup with 50+ years of DD, but fyi Stick treats Matt even worse in the comics, and Matt may hate Stick in the comics too, but he also venerates Stick (the legendary sensei who trained him and taught him how to control his gifts) even MORE in the comics, in spite of all that. It's hard to image our Stick is the kinder, gentler version, but he is, and I'm really looking forward to seeing how this whole Matt needing to be ready 'when the doors open' thing plays out later, probably in the Iron Fist series.