daredevilkink | Discussion/Off-Topic Post #1

Guys, I rewatched the episode Stick and noticed that when little!Matt gives Stick the ice cream bracelet and Stick crushes it in his hand, Matt is frozen in place when Stick leaves but I noticed the bracelet is not on the floor. I half expected Stick to crush it and drop it on the floor (like Matt's heart and hopes and dreams, tbh). So I really do think Stick took it with him, and it was the same bracelet Matt found after the big fight with Stick.

I'm going to make the argument that Stick actually cares about Matt (in his own fucked up way), and he knows he shouldn't. Why does Stick beat the shit out of Matt repeatedly for any perceived failure, but one friendship bracelet and Stick bolts and doesn't come back? Why not just beat the shit out of Matt over being emotional and wanting a father figure? Why not just force Matt to submit and do what he wants, the same way he'd been doing to that point? He heard Matt feeling guilty about killing his own father, why couldn't Stick just emotionally manipulate Matt into doing what he wanted, why not use that weakness in Matt? But no, he just leaves and I'm starting to think it was an act of self-preservation.

If Stick was trying to be a cold-hearted dick to Matt, why does he tell Matt 'I had my reasons'? And when Stick comes back to NYC, he knows exactly where to find Matt. HOW? And Stick talking to Matt after the fight? Matt's cold and shut down, but Stick is practically beaming. 'Maybe there's hope for you yet.' And when Stone asks about Matt, the way Stick replies with insulting words but a proud tone of voice and a tiny smirk? It's easiest to believe that Stick was an awful mentor and that's the end of it, that all he did was break Matt into tiny little pieces and trash whatever sense of self-worth Matt had left, but after this last viewing, I'm really starting to think Stick actually had feelings for Matt. Was he an abusive asshole? Fuck yes, but Stick and Stone are making plans for Matt's future 'when the doors open' like they know he's not going to die before then, how does that even work? And I get the sense they've been planning Matt's future for a long time, but Matt doesn't know about any of this, of course.

If anybody out there has opinions on this, I'd love to hear them, whatever they are. I thought I had the Matt and Stick relationship sorted right away, but now I'm not so sure.

I think the interpretation that Stick cares, but is still an asshole who is bad for Matt's emotional health and well-being is pretty common.

I agree that Stick cares and sees potential on Matt. But he finds it more important for Matt to follow a narrow path than for Matt to be happy carving out his own life. Maybe in Stick's mind, he's let Matt live the life he wanted for the past 20 years(maybe not all of it happy, but it's all been his choice and his own path) and it's time to put away the kiddie dreams and put on some big boy pants and join the war.

I think in the future we'll learn that whatever secret war Stick has been talking about is a war between good vs evil, with the safety of the world at stake which will justify his actions somewhat (wikipedia things on Chaste vs Hand stuff seems to suggest something like this? I don't have a lot of comic knowledge).

I can see other of Stick's disciples complaining that he's gotten soft or is losing touch with the real goals of his orginization for not forcing Matt into the fold when he was younger.

NA, chiming in to respond to "I think in the future we'll learn that whatever secret war Stick has been talking about is a war between good vs evil, with the safety of the world at stake which will justify his actions somewhat"

I'm sorry, I can only cheer for good vs. evil if good demonstrates being actual, y'know, good. Stick starts working with Matt for the money, his methods of training are clearly abusive for an eleven-year-old (or however old he is at this point), he denigrates the work that a grown-up Matt Murdock has done because it is not violent enough. I agree with Matt: he has a warped view of good and evil.

I don't doubt they'll bring Stick back and have him die violently, redeeming himself somehow--but you will never convince me that his actions were justified in the first place. Willing self-sacrifice is commendable. Sacrificing others against their will is not. Isn't that what Captain America 2 was all about?

I think Stick definitely did/does care about Matt, but that it...doesn't really matter? He's a violent, abusive, borderline villainous character who catastrophically fucked up Matt's emotional well-being as a child and then reappeared to verbally abuse and beat up on him some more as an adult. I don't doubt that he thinks he's doing it for the greater good--I don't believe he's behaving that way just for the evulz--but that doesn't justify really anything we've seen him do over the course of the show.

FWIW, I actually think Matt is more aware of how dysfunctional that relationship is than we usually see in fandom. He agrees to work with Stick, but I don't get the impression that he's really motivated by love or the desire for approval (at least not on any conscious level); he just believes that Stick is right about the potential disaster they need to stop. There's very little about their interaction that makes me think Matt is still desperately trying to get Stick's approval and love. I think on some level he wants to prove himself to the old man, but it's more of...like in a 'fuck you' kind of way? You know, like 'see, I'm fine without you, I don't need you, fuck off' kind of way?

Like, it's definitely not healthy, but I'd compare it (in my own experience) to how I've acted around people I know were abusive but can't quite get out of my head, not how I act around people whose approval I genuinely want. There's this tendency to write their relationship as 'Matt thinks how Stick treated him was okay and will do anything to get Stick to love him again', which I just...really don't see in their interactions as adults. There's a lot of (justifiable) anger there on Matt's side.

I completely agree with your first two paragraphs. (I may agree with your third, except that I haven't run across fics depicting their relationship as "Matt thinks how Stick treated him was okay and will do anything to get Stick to love him again" set during the episode "Stick.")

Whether Stick is disgusted by or interested in little Matt's attempts to bond, he'll react in exactly the same way, because he views relationships as inherently distracting and weakening. And he has managed to pass that lesson on to Matt, just as he passed on the lessons about using the senses and meditating and fighting. So I think the important thing about Stick's relationship with Matt is what he tells Karen in "The Ones We Leave Behind": "[Stick] has a way of, uh... getting in your head, you know?" His dad was the man who taught him not to fight, who shaped Matt Murdock, Attorney at Law; this is the man who taught him how to fight, who was instrumental in creating Daredevil. He's not quite so easy to dismiss as Matt wants him to be.

I'm not saying Matt is eager to win Stick's love in the episode "Stick," but I am saying that it probably took Matt a lot of time and a lot of years to be able to see Stick as clearly as he does there, and even then he still agrees to help Stick; I can see him as still hoping for his approval somehow here, or as him just reacting to a threat to the city he's trying to protect. I definitely don't have any issue with writers who want to expand on "Yeah, I've learned a lot since you've been gone," and that's where I've hit the stories where Matt initially assumes that how Stick treated him was fine.

Yeah, I think you can probably interpret it either way--I kind of see kid!Matt as someone who would resort to anger pretty quickly. I think after the initial hurt, he would get mad and then use the anger as a cover for the lingering damage (of which there is clearly quite a lot). But the other interpretation works as well; it's just not the one I prefer. I've also seen that trope show up in fics about Matt as an adult in the context of Foggy helping him sort out his emotional damage, which is something I think only works in small doses (but everyone's going to draw that line in a different spot, so ymmv).

I definitely agree about the contrast between his relationships with his dad and with Stick and the effects they had on him. Jack Murdock created Matthew Murdock, Attorney at Law; Stick created Daredevil.

I am saying that it probably took Matt a lot of time and a lot of years to be able to see Stick as clearly as he does there, and even then he still agrees to help Stick; I can see him as still hoping for his approval somehow here

nayrt

That's how I see him in that scene, too, because you can see Matt wants to cold shoulder Stick from the start, he's still a hurt little boy over Stick leaving, and it looks like he thaws a tiny bit when Stick say he's legit proud of Matty, and then Stick pushes Matt's buttons about Jack just to test his control. And once Stick laughs about Matt learning to get out of the hold, Matt is still angry, but when Stick acknowledges he's a dick and asks for beer? GDI Matt smiles at him like Stick is a long lost friend. And then Matt catches himself and puts the smile away awkwardly. But he does go on to seek validation from Stick in that whole scene, he wants Stick to say he needs Matt, that he finds worth in Matt, and Stick does. And everything is good for two minutes until Stick kills Black Sky and Matt's just uuuugh FML! all over again. It really has to suck to be Matt Murdock with Stick as the mentor who won't GO AWAY.

I don't know how much of the comics will make it into the MCU because they've already done a really good job of playing mashup with 50+ years of DD, but fyi Stick treats Matt even worse in the comics, and Matt may hate Stick in the comics too, but he also venerates Stick (the legendary sensei who trained him and taught him how to control his gifts) even MORE in the comics, in spite of all that. It's hard to image our Stick is the kinder, gentler version, but he is, and I'm really looking forward to seeing how this whole Matt needing to be ready 'when the doors open' thing plays out later, probably in the Iron Fist series.

I don't think he cares about Matt at all.

He took Matt's money, physically and emotionally abused a vulnerable child, and the moment he realized that Matt was forming an emotional attachment to him, he nope'd right on out of there. He wanted a mini-me warrior, not a son.

So then he doesn't bother with Matt for about 20 years until he decided Matt would be useful again, he comes back and starts in with the same emotionally-abusive bullshit, attacks him, and then exploits the abandoned little boy in Matt by leaving that bracelet behind for Matt to find, so that Matt might want to join in on his little "war" if he thinks Stick still cares about him in some small way.

If that's how Stick cares about Matt, I'd hate to see how he'd express dislike for him.

Discussion/Off-Topic Post #1

Does Stick actually care about Matt?

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