daredevilkink | Discussion/Off-Topic Post #1

Entry tags:

discussion

Discussion/Off-Topic Post #1

THIS POST IS NOW CLOSED.

Please head over to Discussion Post #2!

Elektra is sort of like Black Widow in that she's lethal, she sleeps with who she wants, and she's more than willing to use her sexuality as a power play, so she's been sexually paired with, well, a lot of people through the years. To hear it from other characters (like Wolverine in the Enemy of the State arc), Elektra has only ever been in love once, and that was with Matt. Matt loved her, too, back in the day.

Frank labels Matt as young (in the comics Frank is 20+ years older than Matt - this is obvs changing in the MCU) naive and idealistic and an idiot sometimes, yes, and he also labels him as 'good', and something to be protected when he's not in Frank's way, but even then they both know, and admit it on the pages very often, that even though Frank threatens Matt all the time, he's not going to kill Matt, he can't do it.

Matt does go looking for Frank sometimes, he knows his heartbeat, he knows his safehouses, he knows how Frank smells, which is more of a signature to Frank and no different than the way Matt singles out anybody else by how they smell. I'd expect it to be more of a comfort than anything since Frank is a lifer dog soldier, very specific about his habits and hygiene. Maybe what's important to consider here is how often they come to blows, which is to say A LOT, over this fundamental difference, and sometimes it gets vicious and Matt does see that Frank is jailed more than once, but they always have an alliance, they know each other too well, and they rely on each other prob more than they'd like. And when they do work together, Matt makes Frank swear to not kill anyone and Frank will agree. The Omega Effect crossover, for example, where everybody was out to get DD and he let Frank watch his back? Spidey refused to let Matt be alone with Frank, he didn't trust Frank at all, but Matt trusted Frank. Peter didn't understand it, but Frank promised to not kill anyone (and used rubber bullets to protect Matt against his enemies) and didn't break his word. So you're right that it's not Frank's thing to allow evil men to survive, but (this is the big deal here) when Matt asks, he's been willing to change his fundamental beliefs for Matt. You can't see it happening the other way, though, right? Could you imagine Matt working with Frank and agreeing to kill people for as long as they're together? Me neither. :) If I HAD to, I'd say maybe the attraction is a little more one-sided from Frank's perspective, it's not like he has anybody else trying to champion the good in him, but Matt puts up with soooo much and still does soooo much for Frank and even though he thinks he's failed Frank he doesn't want to give up on him, all in spite of how much they fight and disagree, I just can't say Matt doesn't have feelings for Frank. He shouldn't, but he does. And they run deep. Whether we'll see any of that in the MCU is a good question, but I know I'd be happy just to see Matt and Frank be so different, while being so similar (once upon a time Frank was Catholic and wanted to be a priest), and fighting like they do in the comics, but becoming fast allies in spite of it all. That would be enough for me.

To get a real sense of what they mean to each other you have to read Punisher comics as well as DD comics, and you also have to read the crossovers where their relationship is scrutinised and judged by other characters. Those crossovers are the best and say a LOT about Matt and Frank, more honestly than they say about each other or themselves. There's a list of crossovers here and it's pretty good. One of the best is the Omega Effect crossover (with Spider-Man), the Confederacy of Dunces arc (DD is working with Wolverine and Spider-Man trying to catch Frank to send him to prison, but he spends half his time trying to explain Frank's code of ethics to S&W and defending Frank- it's really good), Devil By The Horns which is purely brutal but showcases Frank and Matt's ideologies very well, and the Devil In Cell Block D, if for nothing else than Frank's reaction when Matt asks him to help him break out. THAT is the closest thing I've seen to a smile on the Punisher's face in, like, ever. Frank Castle smiled for his family when they were alive, but that not-frown he gives Matt in that one moment? Holy mother of god, Matt just made the Punisher as close to truly happy as I've ever seen him over a relationship with feeeeeelings.

OP here!

I posted this thread after reading the Daredevil vs. Punisher arc, which was SO GOOD and the characters were just written so well and...Matt just seemed to hate Frank so much, thinking he was a menace because of all of the people he was killing and the bad example he was setting. (Although there is a pretty great scene where they work together to reason with a kid like they're a couple of parents.) It gave me a lot of feels, but most of them were ship-sinking ones.

That's a really interesting point about how Frank will concede his methods when Matt asks him to, but Matt would never do the opposite if Frank asked. But we also have to consider what it means that Frank would never ask Matt to do that, because he's so protective of Matt's morality. After all, the express reason that he got himself thrown into Rykers was so that he could make sure that Matt didn't turn into him, that he wouldn't be driven to the point of such despair that he would make nothing of killing people.

One of the things that I'm interested to see as they bring Frank into the MCU is how they handle his origin story. I'm really hoping that they cover his war experience in flashbacks and have the family stuff happen in real time, maybe with Daredevil trying to help the system take care of the guys who did it. (I'm also really, really hoping that they characterize Maria Castle a little bit before offing her. That'd be just grand.) But really, they could choose any number of backstories, and any number of ways to portray Matt and Frank's relationship. If they wanted to, they could even take a leaf from Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe and have them be childhood friends. The possibilities are endless! It's actually pretty exciting. :)

Hi OP! I'm the ayrt

Oh they definitely fight, this is not a sweet, lovey, let's pick curtains and do the happily ever after thing type of couple, not in any way, shape, or form. These are both very broken men who have ridiculously harsh boundaries when it comes to self-worth and trust issues and personal vulnerability, AND YET they have this bizarre relationship that shouldn't work in any terms, but does, and it just continues to grow and strengthen. The totally fabulous thing is if you go back to the beginning of their relationship and follow it, you can actually see where creators have decided to weigh in on the Frank/Matt relationship and expand on it, give it breath and life and depth, not just intensity. And, dear god, new teams are doing it now because Frank and Matt have established themselves as... I don't know what to call it besides a pairing. And I don't even mean that in a boyfriend way, but it's an honest to god pairing. Both of these guys have done team-ups with so many other characters across Marvel and yet creators just keep putting them together because, for better or worse, they're two sides of the same coin. Which is what draws me to them.

If they wanted to, they could even take a leaf from Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe and have them be childhood friends.

Yaaaaas! See, they couldn't have really done this in the MCU if they went with canon Vietnam vet Frank, because the age difference would have been huge, but they've retconned Frank to be an Iraqi/Afghan vet now, I think, and if he's less than 10 yrs older than Matt, there's a chance they may actually have them be childhood friends of some type. Maybe via the seminary/church/Father Lantom. There was talk from one of the showrunners that DD S2 has been dubbed Daredevil vs The Punisher and their relationship is going to be centred (and the new season filming has already shown Frank in episode 1), but they'll be at odds but have to work together, against a common foe, I assume. My money is on Bullseye (I'm wondering if he's going to be just as twisted psycho obsessed with DD in the MCU as he is in the comics) but who knows.

I'm just like you, horribly excited for anything and all of it but I'm pretty easy to please. I watched Punisher: War Zone and squealed when Frank called someone else in a sarcastic tone of voice 'Oh, he's a regular choirboy.' All I could think was haha, Matt's not allowed to be mentioned in the film because that wasn't a Marvel film and they didn't have rights to DD, but they sure snuck him in there anyway. That scene and the priest quoting scripture to Frank and Frank rumbling, (book of) 'Matthew.' See, even those things made me happy. I'm way too easy.

I love this entire post. There's just so much interplay between Matt and Frank and the fact that Matt understands Frank down to the marrow in his bones and Frank in turn cherishes Matt in his odd way.

I think it says something that Matt and Frank are willing to put aside their differences and be bash brothers after everything that's happened between them. For Frank everything is clear delineated lines while for Matt it's always topsy-turvy and he can't decide if he wants to hit Frank or go drinking with him. There's something in Matt that responds so deeply and positively to Frank or else Matt would lump him in with Bullseye and Fisk. But he doesn't.

I imagine that Matt wishes very much that he could hate Frank. It would make things much easier for him if he could dismiss him like the other supers do. But Matt usually has his back against the wall, and Frank will always be there with a hand grenade to make a hold for him to climb through. Matt trusts Frank Castle with his life, and vice versa.

ayrt o/

There's something in Matt that responds so deeply and positively to Frank or else Matt would lump him in with Bullseye and Fisk. But he doesn't.

omg nonnie, yeeessssss! Matt can call Frank a killer and murderer because it's true, it's factual, but it's so different than the way he calls Vladimir 'murdering scum.' Vlad was out doing awful things to decent, innocent people, and Frank, well, he's targeting the same people as Matt with the exception that Matt wants them to have their day in court, and Frank wants to put a bullet between their eyes. Killer, yes, but Matt really does compartmentalise Frank differently.

Good lord, the last paragraph you wrote? You're going to make me tear up. MY BABIES, THAT'S THEM RIGHT THERE. ♥ OK sorry, didn't mean to get verklempt. but my baaaabies...

ayrt \o

I think part of Matt's odd friendship with Frank is that he understands exactly where Frank is coming from. All versions of Matt lost his father violently which means the empathy flows freely when it comes to Frank's family. But Matt also understands that isn't just about losing the people you love and who loved you back; it's about the fires of rage that those deaths lit under both of them and the lengths it drives them to. Matt found a decent way to channel that in his law work but Frank was only ever a soldier and he didn't have Matt's youth and adaptability when the wife and kids died. So on that level the partnership works - Matt can't bring himself to turn Frank away and Frank can't leave the only kindred spirit that he's ever found. (I mean, I read The Omega Drive too and I know Frank has a sidekick/partner in that one but she leaves. Matt would never do that to Frank, at least not while they're on the job. Which brings me to my next point...)

I've thought for a while that Matt is really Frank's overworked and underappreciated Work Wife. "Fraaaank I told you to bring rubber bullets for this one!" "Oh fer Christ's sake Matty it's always somethin' with you!"

If these two were to actually start courting it would be something like out of an 80s movie. Frank is that guy who pulls up on his motorcycle in front of the house at three in the morning and calls Matt out. "You comin' out altar boy?"

"My father told me about you Frank Castle! I know what kind of a man you are!"

"Yeah. But are you comin' out?"

And Matt scuttles down the drain pipe and snuggles up behind Frank in under a minute. For some reason he's wearing shoes imagine that!!!!

OP:

I'm really into the interpretation of Matt being the Work Wife who always tries to keep Frank in line. His first recourse is normally violence, because he's Daredevil and Frank's the Punisher and that's what they do. But he also does his best to appeal to Frank's logic and humanity, two traits that I think a lot of heroes don't believe Frank possesses at all.

Something that I find really interesting about the Powerless AU is that Matt gets to Frank BEFORE he's killed anybody, and interacting with him actually gets Frank to realize that he doesn't have to kill people (see this gut-wrenching conversation: http://tmblr.co/Z8kWer1o7GUog). This is so heartbreaking because Frank believing in himself and having hope for the future is his version of being "powerless." (...and then, of course, everything goes to shit, but I won't spoil it for you if you haven't read it.) But the only reason he was able to realize that about himself was because Matt saw the good in him when no one else would. Matt's the only one who could ever have a chance to push Frank towards a different path, and I think that some fundamental understanding of that is what drives him to try again and again to redeem Frank.

BTW Gaaah did you have to mention motorcycles? I know nothing about them except what I know from this song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0kJdrfzjAg) and now it's giving me Frank/Matt feels, how do you do that?

"Red hair and black leather, my favorite color scheme." ;) Although for this pairing, black hair and red leather would work pretty okay, too...

Hee! Their 80's courtship! ♥

(Also, yes, Frank's partner in the Omega Drive crossover wasn't exactly trustworthy after all, and to have Frank be the one who brings the traitor to the party, the one who puts Matt in imminent danger when Frank was the one who swore to protect him? I've always wanted a story about that from Frank's perspective in the aftermath because I'm so sure he didn't take that well.)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Discussion/Off-Topic Post #1

Re: Matt/Frank: How plausible is it really?

Re: Matt/Frank: How plausible is it really?

Re: Matt/Frank: How plausible is it really?

Re: Matt/Frank: How plausible is it really?

Re: Matt/Frank: How plausible is it really?

Re: Matt/Frank: How plausible is it really?

Re: Matt/Frank: How plausible is it really?

Re: Matt/Frank: How plausible is it really?