Discussion/Off-Topic Post #2

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Re: How much self control does Frank really have?

[(Anonymous)]

When Frank shots Matt at the roof you could see how he aimed to the helmet. I think he knew it wouldn't kill him so he took the shot.

I think Frank was taunting Matt when he was in that roof with Grotto, Matt was analizing him amd Franks didn't like that, Matt didn't know his story so Frank acted on impulse and gave Matt the performance he was expecting which was a crazy killing machine and he put that gun in Matt's hands and told him to shot him or else Frank was gonna kill Grotto and it the end he did. He kileld Grotto, he killed the bad guy and if a buch of guys came after him after well bad luck, he will find a way to get out.

I think Frank doesnt care if he has to hurt someone for the greater good. Yeah, he used Karen in that dinner, she was almost killed when she went to talk to that army guy but she was safe in teh end. Occupational hazard Frank will say.

Also i think that's how they wanted to portray Frank. Foggy said over and over again that Frank was crazy and suffering PTSD which Frank denied and was offended by it but in other people's eyes. Frank was exactly that.

Re: How much self control does Frank really have?

[(Anonymous)]

OP - I don't disagree that Frank aimed at the helmet and not at Matt's mouth or throat, but... see, this is where things get confusing, because Frank was shooting at Matt minutes earlier point blank in what looked like he was honestly trying to kill him. With the rifle/shotgun, up close, and the only reason Matt isn't dead is because he dodged those shots. Frank's philosophy of one shot, one kill failed horribly.

On my first viewing I didn't think he intended to kill Matt, either, but the more I watch it, the more I think he tried to kill Matt initially, and when that failed he was intrigued enough to want to kidnap him and poke at him a little bit, and no matter what Frank says, he DOES want to know who is under the mask, because he kidnapped Matt for a reason, to know him, to turn him, maybe ultimately to kill him. As we're watching them on that roof when Matt is a prisoner, they're both prying at each other, trying to dig, but Frank has an upper hand because Matt isn't going anywhere, Frank can keep him as long as he wants and he says so, and Frank is... playing these games with Matt, like he wants to know him better for some reason. It's like he can't make up his mind whether Matt should live or die and I find that fascinating in the bigger picture of how Frank behaves through the season.

As for PTSD, I do think Frank has it, and he had a bullet in his head at some point. There was no exit, right? Did they dig the bullet out, is it still in there, did I miss that? I know there's an argument in the comics that the bullet shattered Frank's 'humanity' or basically his softer, gentler side, but I think we see it on the show. I'm glad they gave Frank some softer sides, but I also think we haven't seen anything close to the brutality that Frank is capable of. I'm just wondering if we'll see him retain his humanity, or are we going to see him go full Punisher.

Re: How much self control does Frank really have?

[(Anonymous)]

DA: At that point (the first rifle/shotgun fight), those first few attempted shots with the guns come directly after Matt runs up out of nowhere in the middle of the night while he's trying to snipe Grotto and starts beating the absolute shit out of him. I think it took Frank a little while to figure out who exactly it was that was attacking him, and when he realized he stopped going for guns and fought hand-to-hand until he got in a position where he could sneak the pistol out of his shoe and aim directly for Matt's helmet. That first fight was not at all on his terms and it surprised the heck out of him, and I don't find it weird at all that he went straight for lethal tactics even though obviously Daredevil isn't the type of people he targets. I don't think it was ever his intention to kill Daredevil even then, just to defend himself when attacked.

Re: How much self control does Frank really have?

[(Anonymous)]

But there's a huge difference between defending himself from an attacker and immediate lethal force, and my question is what if DD had been a cop who managed to catch Frank unawares? Does Frank still go for immediate lethal force just because he's not aware of who his opponent is? Does he still have that knee jerk instinct to shoot first? He proved he can manhandle Matt during hand to hand but he doesn't break Matt's neck when presented with the opportunity, so in one fight Frank goes from kill to no-kill and then possibly back to kill again. I'm still thinking of his one shot, one kill philosophy he supposedly holds dear, but he's so inconsistent with that during this season it feels like maybe he's lost his way. He says he knows who he is, but I think he's full of crap. The show gave us a lot of parallels this season, like Matt getting pulled in different directions and thinking he knows himself but needing external help to force him to see himself differently, those twin fucked up trajectories must have been intentional. They're definitely complementary.

Re: How much self control does Frank really have?

[(Anonymous)]

I think his immediate reaction is lethal force, yeah. Remember he just got out of active combat in a warzone where lethal force is necessary, and literally the first full day he was back among civilians he watched his family die and then got shot execution-style because he'd been trying to avoid the danger instead of engaging it. He's not operating with a sound mind here, and when he feels threatened and not in control of the situation, I would expect him to go for lethal force even if it's a cop sneaking up to roundhouse kick him instead of Matt.

I don't think he adopted the "one shot, one kill" philosophy until the end. Remember he was looking around the room, contemplating torture, but then he talks himself out of it with that "one shot, one kill, you taught me that" speech. It's something he's going to start using going forward as the Punisher, not something he was using during the show's run as Frank Castle. (Otherwise, he wouldn't have hung the Cartel from meathooks, or shot Finn Cooley twice before trying to get more information from him.)

Re: How much self control does Frank really have?

[(Anonymous)]

+1

He definitely isnt the Frank whose weaknesses include 'unwillingness to kill american soldiers and police officers'
He might develop that over the course of his tv journey, since he's still at the beginning of his transition from Frank Castle to The Punisher

I was kind of expecting a scene where he accidentally hurts a bystander and freaks out (not Girls In White Dresses level freakout, but maybe wondering if opening fire in a hospital is really such a great idea)