Discussion/Off-Topic Post #2

[ddk_mod]

All Rounds & Other Useful Links | Rules | Mod Post | Writing Challenges | Fills: Completed & WIPs

For things that are neither prompts nor questions for the mod. Talk about the show, ask for help finding lost prompts, organise fic fests or whatever else you want. Discuss away!

Anon commenting is not mandatory for this post. Playing nice is always mandatory.

For the sake of managing spoilers, please use the Defenders-only discussion post for anything Defenders-related. Thank you!

Comments

Re: Foggy and Matt

[(Anonymous)]

OMG I didn't even catch that as foreshadowing! That's amazing!

Honestly, with Foggy I felt like he had a pretty simple game plan. He was fed up with Daredevil taking up all Matt's time and keeping him away from the law firm (and more importantly, maybe, from the broship) - So he figured he'd scare Matt into coming back by suggesting they needed to take time to think about their priorities. I think Foggy fully expected that to be the slap to the face that Matt needed to wake up and realize that he hadn't been giving Foggy enough time. Foggy never expected Matt to push him away. (Though he should've, because that's pretty much Matt's M.O.)

I think if Foggy had known what Matt was actually facing, or had been able to put aside his own hurt and insecurity for a minute, he would've recognized that Matt was doing one of his push-you-away-because-you're-better-off-without-me things.

Poor precious Cinnamon Rolls of Justice!!!

Re: Foggy and Matt

[(Anonymous)]

What kills me is that he literally says, out loud, "You're better off without me." As if that isn't simultaneously the most self-loathing and passive aggressive thing ever.

Ugh, these two. They just kill me. They're doing the reverse psychology thing and it's backfired spectacularly on both of them. Congrats lads, you've fucked up a perfectly good friendship. Look at it, it's got anxiety.

Re: Foggy and Matt

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, there was discussion in another thread about Matt being addicted to being Daredevil, and Charlie Cox has said as much. But I think if Matt is addicted to Daredevil, Foggy's problem is that he's addicted to Matt. Not Nelson & Murdock, the firm only matters because it's where Matt is, it's 'their' home, it's where they get to be a family and have this construct of marriage. I'm not saying Foggy doesn't care about his clients, I think he does, but they don't rate in comparison to Matt.

First few mins of ep 1 this season he's all about wanting Matt to come out with him, 'just you and me!', and then his face falls because Matt's bleeding and he's reminded of Daredevil (really shitty timing for you to show up, DD), and Foggy says, 'I hate this.' And a minute later he says point blank, 'You're my partner. I don't want to continue alone.' He said as much last season in NvsM, too, the only thing he ever needed was his friend.

And I can kinda see the sense that it makes to assume that Foggy's always been in love with Matt, platonic or otherwise, because Foggy's built his whole life around Matt, Foggy's put himself in this position, and even when Matt lets Foggy walk out on him the first time, Foggy makes the informed decision to return to Matt's side. Because he wants Matt in his life even if it means Matt's bringing hornhead with him. That has to be a tough decision. Live without Matt or make room for all of Matt's truths. I think Foggy wants to do that, I think he really tries, but he's... resentful. And he finds little ways to let Matt know it, passive aggressive ways. That dig about putting the suit back in the wacko box it came from is really painful for me to watch because the way Matt reacts, it just seems like Matt's heard those comments before. He's very tolerant because he knows Foggy is trying. And lbr Matt loves Foggy.

So I think you're right. Foggy knows about Matt's abandonment issues, and he had to know it hurt Matt tremendously when he left after Nelson vs Murdock and maybe he just assumed Matt wouldn't want to go through that again. It's not like Matt doesn't love Foggy, he just doesn't show it in the same way as Foggy, and I think absolutely Matt knew his life was going from 0 to shit when he said he was holding Foggy and Karen back, that they were better off without him. I mean, yeah I wanted to strangle him myself by that point because does he not understand anything about the way friendship works? And then I realise no, he doesn't, not really. Foggy is the one closest to him and if this is how they're treating each other, then this is Matt's baseline for friendship.

And ffs poor Foggy, everything just backfired on him. I'm glad he's honest when he says he'd hoped Matt would ask him to stay, but was relieved he didn't. I don't think Foggy will miss Matt right away, but he's going to miss him like mad soon, eventually. And Matt's going to be lost without him.

Re: Foggy and Matt

[(Anonymous)]

I mean, yeah I wanted to strangle him myself by that point because does he not understand anything about the way friendship works?

Honestly after all the stuff we see with Elektra in this season, I'm pretty sure that not only does he not really get how friendship works (despite his experiences with Foggy), he seems to be actively drawn into abusive relationships because that feels more "normal" to him. I mean, his first father-figure replacement was Stick (abusive); I can't imagine his experiences growing up were great in the orphanage/at school-- remember him asking Foggy if his blindness was going to be a problem? And then it seems like the only real relationship he had was Elektra, who was super manipulative--on Stick's orders.

Add in all Matt's fucked up self-loathing and Catholic guilt and it's no wonder he has no idea how to make a healthy friendship/relationship work. For all that he's super charming, Matt really doesn't understand people or social stuff at all.

Re: Foggy and Matt

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt - I agree with everything you're saying. I think the show gave us so much explanation for what makes Matt gravitate to abusive relationships. I almost feel like denying it because that seems like such a fannish construct? But no, it seems like they really made that canon. And now didn't it seem like Stick was going to stay with him, or he was going to run off with Stick? I know people are happy Stick said he was proud of Matt, but that doesn't erase everything Stick did to Matt, or abandoning him. I'm not... good with Matt spending even more time with Stick. I'm not.

Have you seen the post on Matt and bdsm? I followed the link and read a lot and now I'm even more horrified that the show tucked Matt's probably penance kinks right into an episode and I'd missed it completely.