daredevilkink | Discussion/Off-Topic Post #1

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Discussion/Off-Topic Post #1

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*nods* Maybe? I love Foggy, but I have some serious issues with some of the skeevier things he does to Matt and Karen? The blatant up and down HEY BABY look he gives his new blind roomate who (supposedly) can't see the leering and ogling was one red flag, and the other was when Foggy is out stalking Karen. He ended up saving her, yes, but if she hadn't had a problem that night it would have amounted to just a night of Foggy following her to see where she goes. Foggy shows up at Fogwell's Gym for Matt, too, and admits he's known about Matt going there for awhile, which is... it just makes me uncomfortable because if you've ever had someone who was sexually flirtatious with you just show up somewhere you are like they knew where to find you, then you know that feeling. Those things are not cool, and those are only a couple of things Foggy does that are really crossing a boundary. Foggy may love these people in his life, but there's some deeper, sneaky control issues happening that make me wary because they're so well hidden, like in plain sight, and somehow Matt and Karen let it go. Do they let it go because they love Foggy? Matt canonically lets Foggy get away with a lot, he lets Foggy lie to him and he swallows it, but Karen? Marci?

Foggy says he doesn't have any secrets and I don't buy it for a second because of his established relationship with the bottle. I think he has more issues than we give him credit for because he's so sunny and expert at hiding his problems and because the show spends most of its time shining a light on deconstructing all of Matt's problems, and then Karen's, that Foggy doesn't get a lot of time to have his guts brought into the light. But he does seem to be pressing on Matt and/or Karen at various points in the series. Is it possible to have a mix of legit nice guy and also "nice guy" happening, because I could totally get behind that completely for Foggy.

yo i don't mean to be starting any arguments here but foggy "stalking" karen? is literally....the same thing.....that matt does......in episode one.

i just....idk. why are we calling foggy a creepy stalker when he does basically the same stuff that matt does? except he doesn't have the upper hand of listening to heartbeats or hearing stuff from blocks away? i love my three avocados but you can't just condemn the behavior of one character and then fail to mention that it's extremely similar to another character's. if anything, both matt and foggy are both Horribly Concerned But Misguided Individuals.

Nonnie, I think you're missing my point in context with the OP's statement re: the 'nice guy' vs the nice guy. IIRC (and maybe I don't!) but when Matt follows Karen she's their client, and she's lying to them at the time, which is why Foggy and Matt are suspicious. Matt knows Karen's telling the truth about not killing that guy (which is why he takes the case when Foggy wants to ditch her for not being a paying client), but she's also lying and hiding something else. Yes, he follows her, but it's not out of misguided concern, it's straight up concern that whatever she's sneaking OUT OF HIS SAFE HOUSE to go do is not going to end well. And here's the important part, it's not in context with him being sexually attracted to her, it's about the job, and about him promising to protect her. Foggy, later, has no real reason to be creeping on Karen, she's not their client anymore and she's allowed to turn him down for a date and go have personal business elsewhere. If she wanted them to know where she was going she'd have said, but she doesn't and Foggy doesn't like it so he follows her. By that point everybody knows Foggy has a thing for her. Him stalking her isn't professional, it's personal, and it's weird and invasive and there are laws against that. :) Anyway, that's my point about the stalking. We don't know the context of Foggy somehow knowing about Matt hieing himself off to Fogwell's Gym, but the fact that he knows about it while Matt doesn't know how rings some alarms for me. But yknow, maybe those kinds of things Foggy does are considered romantic or sexy to some people, so my opinion is subjective, sure.

TLDR: I'm not trying to start an argument, either, but it's not literally the same thing Matt does in episode one. Technically, yes, literally, no, the contexts are very different along with the motivations.

just as a clarification here: i do not condone stalker behavior, especially thinking that it's romantic or sexy. i'm just saying that foggy's behavior was understandable (from a friend perspective! not even from a romantic one!) because karen was sneaking around, acting incredibly weirdly, etc. you gotta remember that the circumstances of karen's release was based purely on the fact that foggy and matt were able to poke holes in the corrupt police force's reasoning for keeping her locked up in the first place.

logically? even if karen isn't considered a target anymore, i'd be similarly worried about her (which would also explain why foggy was following her around with not only a softball but an entire bat, jesus christ foggy. he figured she was in significant enough danger that he might actually have to crack some heads with it). i mean sure, it's totally normal for karen to feel weirded out by the fact that her boss is trailing behind her with a weapon but i just can't really fault foggy on that since he seems like the type to give himself an ulcer worrying over people.

there is one thing that i will absolutely fault foggy on, though, and that's the fact that he doesn't understand how dangerous it is to be a woman in new york city, god love him. that conversation he has with karen in the bar where she says "i just see dark corners" and he replies with something along the lines of "but not everything is out to get you? look at these surly ex-cons sitting around, they're actually good people"? terrible. you don't tell a woman who feels uncomfortable in the city after hours that sort of thing. and later on when foggy says "did you know karen carries mace on her keychain? sometimes i worry about her": no shit, dude, most women over the age of 17 carry pepper spray or mace because they have to. most girls leaving for college get pepper spray from their parents because they need it.

overall? i think foggy doesn't really realize that some of the things he says or does can be construed as creepy or oblivious because he doesn't know what it's like to be walking the streets of new york as a woman, y'know? i think it's just that the stuff he does is out of good intentions but he just doesn't know.

i think foggy doesn't really realize that some of the things he says or does can be construed as creepy or oblivious because he doesn't know what it's like to be walking the streets of new york as a woman, y'know?

I can TOTALLY agree with you on the first half of that sentence, because I really do love Foggy, and I would hope at some point we do get to see him show a little character growth with respect to how he ignores boundaries. But I also don't think he's excused from crossing boundaries because he doesn't understand what it's like to be a woman (anywhere, not just NY). That's a little too close to excusing any man from crossing ANY boundary with a woman, just because he couldn't possibly understand what it's like to be in her shoes. And I think Foggy knows he crosses boundaries in some instances, maybe specific instances, but does it anyway because he wants what he wants.

When he's in the bar with Karen and he sees her NEEDING that shot of liquor and throwing it back like a pro, he starts prodding her for info and she asks him to leave it alone. And he tells her he's not good at that, he's not good at leaving things alone, and he presses her anyway. She does give in to him and speak up, yes, and maybe that's why Foggy doesn't know how to respect when someone says no, hush, I don't want to talk about this because Karen and Matt both give in to him when he pushes. We see him do some of that to Matt in the flashbacks, too, and especially when he's super angry at Matt for being DD which, hey, he has every right to be angry, but Foggy being angry equates to him also being entitled to ALL Matt's secrets 'and don't you dare leave a damn thing out', and then dismiss whatever he doesn't agree with or understand. Foggy is a NICELY fleshy character with faults and strengths and vices and good intentions (road to hell, etc), and is a 'work in progress.' :) I adore him. And I can totally agree with some of your perspective, nonny, but we'll have to agree to disagree on the rest.

OP

Agreed. I think the thing that gets me about the boundary-ignoring is that he...kind of does it with Matt, too. Like, the thing with Karen I actually just thought was some kind of bad deux-ex-machina writing, but he sort of does the same thing with Matt. And Marci, too, for that matter.

I do love Foggy, but I think he has issues with boundaries in general, which is something I feel like ties a lot into his alcoholism.

Man, I adore all the Avocados, but they are a trio of seriously messed up people.

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