daredevilkink | Discussion/Off-Topic Post #1

Haaaaaave you met Jessica Jones fandom? Or Agent Carter fandom?

There are fandoms that are fairly heavily femslash oriented.

I will agree that it sucks that it is so marginalized in most fandoms though. :(

It's probably because in most movies/tv shows/books well developed female characters are rare and interesting relationships between two female characters are rarer still. I know there are people that just don't like femslash either way, but for me it just completely depends on what they are like together in Canon. More interesting male/male relationships in Canon is the only reason I have mainly slash ships. Its harder ( but not impossible!) to make people care about shipping people who have never met or who have had minimal interactions with.

Jessica Jones and Agent Carter are different because they star female characters and it's easier to care about the main characters relationships, especially with other women she seems to have tension with.

We have good women in this fandom though. I don't want to only have to look outside of my primary fandom to find femslash. And I adore genderswap femslash and it has trickled to a halt lately.

I just think we can do better.

I mean this honestly - if you want more of a certain type of fic, then a good idea would be to write that kind of fic and build an audience.

When you say 'we can do better' it sounds a lot more like 'the fic writers are not writing things that match my tastes.' Fandom is participatory. There's nothing stopping you from building up your own niche, you don't have to wait for others to do it for you.

The whole point of having a kink meme is that there are some things you can't or don't want to write yourself. I am already participating by writing fills for other people who don't want to write their own prompts. It's not a crime to not want to just read your own writing all the time. Like I get what you're saying 'build a niche' but a) femslash shouldn't have to be considered a niche and b) I am busy not just with writing but with life.

Everything on meme and ao3 is just starting to look really same-y and I see people saying 'there's nothing left to write' when they are just writing the same two pairings and the same four topics ad nauseum.

I'm sorry, there aren't any good f/f relationships in this fandom that people are passionate about, it's a shame. But there is a REASON those same pairings get written over and over, and it's because people like them. Whether it's because they have better canon relationships or everyone is just obsessed with dicks I can't say, probably a bit of both. You can't say it shouldn't have to be a niche like people are purposely ignoring the idea as part of some anti-lesbian agenda, when really people are just writing and commenting on what they like.

I think that the unfortunate thing about this discussion is that both points of view are 100% valid.

On the one hand, nobody should feel ashamed to write what they like, and a lot of the times what fans like is slash, angst, and stuff that does start to feel samey but it's what everyone wants. Fandom's gonna do what it does, and trying to change it is often pointless because it's a weird hive mind about what it likes or doesn't. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I enjoy a good Matt/Foggy fic as much as the next person, and that's the majority of what I write.

On the other hand, though, I really dislike when people make the "It's popular because most people like it the best" argument. Because the truth is, we are an echo chamber. People want to write fics that are going to be well-received and attract readers. They want to write things that fans like, as much as they want to write for themselves. And there may be truly great writers out there who looooove femslash, or love other things that we don't see a lot of here. And they may either be writing Matt/Foggy because they're under the impression that nobody cares about anything else anyway, or they may have left early on when they contributed great prompts and fills for femslash that everyone rejected, or they may just look at our fandom and think "this isn't for me" based on what they see. So "what everyone likes" sometimes starts to feel like "what everyone thinks everyone likes" and less about creativity and originality and transformation.

When I had an issue with Ben Urich's lack of fic, I wrote one. And you know what? I did get some great comments saying "I never thought to write about him before, but then I read this and suddenly was inspired to." They didn't materialize, but I bet if a couple of them had, we'd have more of that kind of fic around. All it takes is a couple of great fics in a genre for them to suddenly be all anybody wants to read (look at what's happening with the slavery prompts right now).

So it's a push/pull. Be the change you want to see in fandom. But also, don't let anyone tell you that you're the only one responsible for being that change because you're outnumbered. Because you may not be, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with putting it out there and saying "Are there any other femslash lovers around?" Even if you don't write it and only function as a cheerleader for others to, there's still value in that.

P.S. I'm also the OP above talking about the Best of the Meme-type challenge, and one of the categories I wanted to highlight was femslash, because tbh there were some great and well-received prompts for it earlier on that just didn't get filled. Same with poly fic. So maybe those could inspire some people. I think in general, bringing back some earlier prompts that everyone was really into at the time might give some inspiration back to people currently not feeling all the samey stuff. Because it's been a while since we've had a lot of Claire prompts, or Fisk/Vanessa, or Wesley, or other stuff that was really interesting.

I've seen a couple Karen/Marci or Karen/Claire fic and they were boring af, tbh.

Not the OP. This is sadly true.

I suspect some of the problems with femslash may come from how often femslash prompters are ONLY looking for smut/PWP. It's hard to make a real case for a rarer pairing and write an interesting fic when the only goal is hot sex, and for a lot of people the hot sex is only interesting when they already understand or care about the pairing.

I love to read plotty, lengthy fics featuring a femslash pairing (which is why JJ and Agent Carter fandom is fun). Feel free to disagree though. That may just be me.

I am busy not just with writing but with life.

...bb, so are all the other writers and commenters on the meme. People write what they want to write and no one's actually entitled to anything in fandom.

But that's the beauty of the community because if what you want isn't there, you can create it. I get that not everyone's a writer, but that's alright. Prompt away! If you don't have time to write, then comment! But giving the side-eye to other fans ("I just think we can do better.") for not producing what you like is not on.

And also, because this is the vibe I'm picking up from some of these comments - people not being gung-ho for femslash is not a value judgement on femslash. 'Niche' in this case just means it has a small audience, which hey, is true. But honestly, so does slavery fic, and I think we've all seen what can happen when a few fans get really enthusiastic about the prompts they're putting out.

giving the side-eye to other fans ("I just think we can do better.") for not producing what you like is not on.

^This. Thank you.

Not the OP or AYRT, but... I don't think it's "giving side eye to fans" to say that we can do better.

If we hold the actual canon media to a higher standard of representation (which we should) and complain about a lack of diversity there, why should we have lower expectations for fanfiction.

Nobody's pointing a finger at any onr author individually or judging anyone for not writing femslash that I've seen here. They're only asking the question of why femslash isn't being represented and trying to see if anyone else here is interested in it with them.

It's everyone else who's getting defensive.

NA

"We can do better" is a value judgement, though. No, there's no finger being pointed straight at me, but I'm part of a community being judged.

why should we have lower expectations for fanfiction.

Because it's something people choose to do for free in their spare time, rather than part of a cash-rich industry? Because it's derivative of and based on love for characters established in that industry? Yeah, it'd be great to see more diversity of all types! 100% no argument there. But I'm not going to judge people for wanting to spend their free time writing about the characters of their heart.

(For the record, I totally understand wanting more of something, not having the time to write it yourself, and coming to meme to vent. But to me there is a sense of judgement coming through and it's off putting. Coming to the meme to tell people they're not doing fandom well enough is what I don't understand.)

Re: Lack of Femslash?

(Anonymous) - 2015-12-18 12:49 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Lack of Femslash?

(Anonymous) - 2015-12-18 15:37 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Lack of Femslash?

(Anonymous) - 2015-12-18 22:34 (UTC) - Expand

There are great women in DD, but....do *any* of them *ever* talk to each other?

Claire talks to her boss Shirley, once. Karen is physically present near Marci when *Foggy* talks to her. Madame Gao talks *about* Vanessa to Fisk. I....think that's it.

Oh, Karen talks to Marlene about Fisk and to Doris about Ben. Both of whom are old enough to be her grandmother, only sometimes lucid, and either the mother of her enemy or the widow of the friend Karen feels like she killed. Not a lot of typical ship fodder there.

There aren't any F/F relationships (in the general, non-romantic sense) on screen, any dynamics to dig into. I'm not saying that's a total barrier, fandom can totally ship people who haven't met yet, but compared to dynamics that get a lot of emotional focus in the show to work from? Yeah, of course there's going to be a dearth of fic.

TLDR individually great female characters are necessary but not sufficient. Some canon lady interactions go a long way toward encouraging f/f in fandom. (Hence JJ and Agent Carter fandoms). Hopefully we actually get some in season two.

...oh and Karen talks to Daniel's wife. Another grieving widow Karen blames herself for. WELP.

Karen also talks to Elena Cardenas in the law office and her apartment, and was either going to see her (or coming back from seeing her, I forget) when she gets almost-mugged in an alley and we discover Foggy was stalking her with a baseball bat. Which is something! But again, it's Karen and somebody old enough to be her grandmother (and who apparently ships her hard with Foggy), so not traditional ship fodder. :(

Yes. I have met Jessica Jones fandom. And I have been reading Jessica/Trish and Jessica/Claire. But there isn't enough and sometimes I wanna see genderswap Matt/Foggy or Claire/Karen or Karen/Marc or fem!Matt/Karen or like speculation on ladies Elektra could date. Cos like Elektra is coming and we keep seeming to forget all about her too.

Agent Carter isn't on Netflix.

I agree that I am disappointed as well about the complete lack of excitement for Elektra while simultaneously freaking out about Punisher. I don't understand that, because Elektra is amazing.

What female do you think people should be shipping her with?

There's all kinds of possibilities.

You could do a college genderswap where Matt's a girl. Or imagine a college scenario between her and Marci (and Foggy or Matt if polyamory is your thing).

You could have her have been working for Fisk behind the scenes in S1 or even after and come after Karen as retribution for Wesley and then things get hot. Or have her be hired by Vanessa afterward to help her rebuild her husband's empire while he's away.

A scenario where Matt encounters and she's injured so he brings her to Claire and you is also possible.

I could go on endlessly.

Correction:

A scenario where Matt encounters her fighting and she's injured so he brings her to Claire and they meet is also possible.

I DIDN'T REALIZE HOW HOT I WAS FOR THIS YEA!!!!!

Personally rn if I think abt it I'm into Karen/Elektra. Sounds intense and interesting in the way not a lot of Karen pairings have felt for me.

Daaaang now I wanna prompt it○

DO IT!

http://daredevilkink.dreamwidth.org/6237.html?thread=12100957#cmt12100957