daredevilkink | Discussion/Off-Topic Post #2

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Discussion/Off-Topic Post #2

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So S2 has been out for a while already, but I want to know, what were your fancanons or headcanons or character/plot interpretations that totally got thrown out the window this season?

I think the biggest one was probably the reality of how (not) close Foggy and Matt's friendship really was. I was with that section of fandom who thought they were going to be inseparable soulmates for life, but as it turns out, ... ;____;

I was expecting way more antagonism between Matt and Frank as well. I know they're mostly cool with each other in the comics, but I just couldn't imagine Matt coming to accept the Punisher killing people in Hell's Kitchen under any circumstances, much less becoming allies with him. But I think the season sold it pretty well in the end.

There's also Matt's relationship with Elektra. From some of the trailers and interviews, and from when she was first introduced, I thought it was going to be way more twisted and abusive than it ended up being (because I'm trash and I love seeing Matt get hurt, lmao) - though that's not to say that it wasn't fairly messed up in the show anyway, with Roscoe Sweeney and all that. The way it went in canon was still brilliant imo, but there was just something about Matt's initial reactions to Elektra that just pushed all my buttons.

I still have hope for Matt and Foggy LOL. Maybe I am super in denial but I'm sure that after the Defenders, Daredevil will have to force himself back into Foggy's life because of Fisk's threat. (Daredevil season 3 Marvel, pls. Pls Marvel. My soul needs it.) I think that it will take Matt really risking his life and saving Foggy (and maybe his family) in a way that only Matt could do as Daredevil for Foggy to start accepting his identity, but I think it's a possibility.

As far as them being inseparable soulmates for life- I guess the show does really beat us over the head with the fact that their lives are inevitably going in different directions, and they will from now on. (Foggy will never be a vigilante, Matt will always be Daredevil.) But...I AM STILL HOLDING OUT HOPE, OKAY.

So maybe my headcanon will be jossed as time goes on. (Pls, Marvel, don't do this to me. Pls.)

I don't know much about Punisher except that he kills bad guys and is crazy, so like you I definitely thought that there was going to be more animosity between DD and Punisher. I remember really liking the early 2000s Punisher, but I didn't think I would like Frank all that much this season as a character, to be honest.

DA but I have hope for Matt and Foggy, too! They have a few falling outs in the comics but still always ultimately come back together in the end, and while the show... doesn't quite feel that way... I still haven't lost hope that they'll find their ways back to each other someday!

So. Yes. I don't know about the "inseparable" bit, since obviously they've become quite separated, but I still think of them as soulmates for life. Just, ya know, with a ton of heartache.

~~I liked the Punisher more than I liked Daredevil before the Netflix show began... with s1 I liked DD so much, much to my surprise... but with s2 I'm back to liking Punisher more...~~

Dude the way Matt initially reacted to Elektra sent off so many red flags for me! He acted like an abuse victim being surprised by the abuser they thought they'd escaped from forever. I kept waiting for her to do some awful emotional shit for the next few episodes, but then she turned out to be pretty alright in my book. I really started liking her when she demanded he give her the pie back.

Mmm. Elektra did deliberately try to cut Matt off from any kind of support when he was in law school, intentionally isolating him and dominating his time. (And she initially did it purposefully, to cut him off from the life he had chosen.) She lies to and manipulates him with that whole break-in thing, using the private information he'd painfully shared with her in an attempt to push him into doing something he finds morally offensive (killing Sweeney). When he won't fall in line with her expectations, she completely drops him without a word.

I think, by the beginning of Season Two, Matt is grateful in retrospect to get out of that relationship, even though it contributed to his abandonment issues. And it is those same issues that dragged him back into some form of relationship with her--he doesn't want to abandon Elektra when she appears to be all alone and reckless, particularly in the wake of the death of her father, a death she has particular reason to know will resonate with Matt. She once again isolates him from his support (Foggy and Karen) and cuts him off from his chosen profession, demeaning and belittling his dedication to it. She dominates his time, going so far as to destroy his best chance for defending Castle successfully because she's impatient with the time Matt is willing to give to his job. She manipulates him by placing herself in danger and making Matt feel responsible for it, although she apparently could have called Stick in as backup instead; she also controls the information he receives in a (successful) bid to control him. And all this despite the fact that Matt initially tells her "no," a fact that she completely ignores. (No means NO, Elektra. You should know that one.) It may be subtler than Frank's gun to the head, but as you can tell, it's far more effective, since it ends up with Elektra having successfully driven a steamroller through Matt's life once again.

I don't know that much about the subtler forms of domestic abuse, so maybe the relationship's not abusive? But it's sure as anything not a healthy relationship, either.

I don't think Elektra isolated Matt or even monopolised his time the second time round. Sure she was impatient and kept needling him, but the choice to go with her was always, ultimately, Matt's. She didn't MAKE HIM do anything, he chose to go with her to that party. He chose to go with her after that professor and he chose to stay out late instead of working on hos case. What kept him from closing the door in the driver's face at the hospital? What kept him from prioritising his duty towards Foggy and their business? Nothing. Nothing except the fact that he WANTED to go with Elektra.

And more than that, despite her clearly thinking that being a lawyer is bs (I'm with you on this, Ellie), she knows that that's important to him. She cares when he had a bad day and she cares enough about his work to try and help. She's more supportive of Matt's lawyer life than Foggy is of Matt's Daredevil life (though I firmly believe Foggy has very good reasons to be wary).

That's gotta be Matt and Foggy's relationship. Or how imbalanced it is. This season showed - at least imo - that Foggy cares more about them than Matt does. I tried to explain that to myself and reason with myself, but when I saw that Foggy got shot (a scenario I've seen in a million fics and expected a fic-like follow-up) and Matt was basically like "okay, cool story bro, I'll just leave you here because going to harass Fisk in prison is more important than you, my best friend" I gave up. And then that idiot didn't even visit Foggy in the hospital. For the second time.

And I sort of noped out after that, because I kept thinking of all those times in comics when Foggy was hurt and Matt was out of his mind with anxiety and worry, and meanwhile MCU!Matt wasn't even trying tp enter the Friend of the Year competition.

[Wow this got stupidly long, orz. SORRY FOR THE TLDR, I've just been thinking about this a lot.]

I pretty much agree. I keep trying to tell myself that Matt does care as much about Foggy and is just fundamentally, incredibly bad at showing it, but he really does strongly give that impression, doesn't he?

Even in the very beginning, when Foggy is worried about him and says "Do not make fun of me," Matt...doubles down on making fun of him. Matt acts flippant and then aggravated every time Foggy's upset - and some of it is escalation because Foggy's being judgemental, yeah, but Matt still literally acts like Foggy caring that he got shot(aka behaving like a friend) is this unfortunate, even insulting thing he has to put up with.

He only gives Foggy any information about what he's doing to make Foggy shut up about wanting to spend non-work time with him, and then stops even spending work time with him. (Foggy says "you never told me about that," so however much time there was between seasons, Matt wasn't letting him in then, either.) It really gives the impression that not only would Matt not have ever told him anything if he hadn't gotten caught, but that he doesn't really regret it and still just wishes he hadn't got caught.

And then his constant absences in S2 look like the real major change post-revelation: at least now that Foggy knows, he doesn't need to come up with excuses for all the time he chooses to be somewhere else. The fact that he stops (and has already stopped, pre-S2 plots launching) spending any personal time with Foggy makes it seem pretty clear that Daredevil is more important to him. Obviously Matt is actually a very fucked up guilt cookie who thinks he doesn't deserve a night off even if he does want one, but he doesn't really act like he wants one. And when he DOES take a night off, he spends it flirting with Karen, who doesn't know his secret. And Foggy, who misses Matt like crazy and obviously crushed on Karen in S1, makes a point of giving Matt his blessing while Karen is in the restroom, because he wants Matt to be happy and have human connections and good things in his life other than violence? Like, canonically, Foggy trying to get Matt to ease off on Daredevil is not just Foggy "selfishly" wanting to monopolize Matt's time.

Looking back to S1, I don't get the feeling that Matt is actually trying to move forward at all. Matt certainly doesn't act like he's trying to win back Foggy's trust, or even seem to remember any more that he broke it. To me it kind of feels like in Matt's mind, Fisk's arrest vindicates all of his decisions completely, and Foggy's continued trust, that "go be a hero" in the finale, means that everything is forgiven and he doesn't have to worry about it anymore. And then he gets upset when Foggy doesn't cooperate.

All the complaints that Matt is "entitled to his secrets/privacy" feel like they're missing the point to me, which is that Foggy is massively insecure in their friendship after being lied to for so long, and a good friend would care about that fear and hurt and be willing to compromise to alleviate it. And even then, when Matt makes it clear that he wants to keep his work for the "new client" private, Foggy doesn't push him. Being upset when he finds out it's Elektra is less about him having the right to know everything and more about Matt still not sharing anything personal that's actually important to him - Matt has a right not to, but the fact that he doesn't want to confide in Foggy, or is even willing to when he knows how tenuous their relationship is, suggests he's not willing to be vulnerable to Foggy or let them have a relationship as friends.

(Meanwhile, despite not being conveniently copacetic with all of Matt's decisions, Foggy obviously is trying, both to understand Daredevil and to repair their friendship generally. He wants them to spend time together, but he does listen when Matt talks about the woman he saved in their first S2 scene. He wipes away the blood Matt doesn't notice, he finds Matt when he's concussed and stranded, he takes the Castle case because Matt thinks it's worthwhile.)

You get these little hints that Matt cares about Foggy - his panic at Fisk's threat, his stalking on the hospital roof, and I can headcanon that part of the reason Matt never does show him is that sort of "I don't deserve you" self-loathing that makes him feel like he shouldn't impose his feelings/neediness on Foggy, and part just general Stoic Boy Difficulties opening his mouth, but still. And on the other hand you get Matt saying things like "I won't apologize for who I am" and that Elektra is the only one who knows the real him/all of him - meaning Daredevil is who he is, and the lawyer who's been friends with Foggy for ten years not only lied and hid things, but isn't a real part of him.

We never hear Matt's answer for "Was anything ever real between us?" because the episode cuts to a flashback. But his behavior and explicit statements in S2 really heavily imply that from Matt's perspective, the answer is actually, explicitly no.

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Discussion/Off-Topic Post #2

How did your headcanons get jossed?

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