Anon who originally made the point about it NOT being Foggy's fault -
Here's the thing. I don't think Foggy's a saint. I'm not absolving him of his involvement in being the one to tell Matt not to simply come out as Daredevil from the beginning. But I just think it's a bit much to blame him for the prison shanking and subsequent decision to temporarily stay in witness protection? Like, that's a crazy expectation for how someone would act to assume that he would do anything different or even had the power to do anything differently in that specific scenario, orchestrated or not.
I'm not saying it's 100% Matt's fault he's in jail, or that it's 100% Matt's fault he got shanked, but let's face facts - at the end of the day, the decision to BE DAREDEVIL, period, was Matt's to make despite the wide-reaching impact it had on Foggy's life. And Foggy has always stuck by him through almost all of that, so I don't think it's shitty of him to nearly die and then allow witness protection to look out for him for a bit. I also think that it was never a case of him wanting to be in witness protection, because the minute he's healed he's trying to contact Matt and figure out what's going on. He knew he was Matt's lawyer and what the stakes were for Matt.
And I'll agree with you that painting Foggy as a saint is unfair. I actually hate when people do that too. But there is also a tendency among Daredevil fans (especially those for the show) to similarly try and paint Matt as a cinnamon roll whose decision to be Daredevil is saintly and heroic and all about his wanting to do the right thing vs. Foggy being kind of a nag who just wants to be pissy with him about it. And both characterizations are ridiculous.
I called out the blaming Foggy in the particular scenario stated only because I thought that in that case specifically it was really reaching to blame Foggy and let Matt off the hook, not because I don't think Foggy's guilty of anything or Matt's always in the wrong. It seemed to me to be an attempt to absolve Matt of responsibility for all of the stuff that went down related to his outing and paint him as a victim rather than a person whose choices (made with agency and knowing full well what might happen at the time) caught up with him.
I agree with the above anons that really it's all about balancing both of them as characters who collectively together often make fucked up choices, including things like faking Foggy's death later on in Waid's run or the things that happened with relation to Milla. I'm not completing in the camp of either of them.
Re: Matt deciding to kill Fisk vs deciding to kill the Punisher
Here's the thing. I don't think Foggy's a saint. I'm not absolving him of his involvement in being the one to tell Matt not to simply come out as Daredevil from the beginning. But I just think it's a bit much to blame him for the prison shanking and subsequent decision to temporarily stay in witness protection? Like, that's a crazy expectation for how someone would act to assume that he would do anything different or even had the power to do anything differently in that specific scenario, orchestrated or not.
I'm not saying it's 100% Matt's fault he's in jail, or that it's 100% Matt's fault he got shanked, but let's face facts - at the end of the day, the decision to BE DAREDEVIL, period, was Matt's to make despite the wide-reaching impact it had on Foggy's life. And Foggy has always stuck by him through almost all of that, so I don't think it's shitty of him to nearly die and then allow witness protection to look out for him for a bit. I also think that it was never a case of him wanting to be in witness protection, because the minute he's healed he's trying to contact Matt and figure out what's going on. He knew he was Matt's lawyer and what the stakes were for Matt.
And I'll agree with you that painting Foggy as a saint is unfair. I actually hate when people do that too. But there is also a tendency among Daredevil fans (especially those for the show) to similarly try and paint Matt as a cinnamon roll whose decision to be Daredevil is saintly and heroic and all about his wanting to do the right thing vs. Foggy being kind of a nag who just wants to be pissy with him about it. And both characterizations are ridiculous.
I called out the blaming Foggy in the particular scenario stated only because I thought that in that case specifically it was really reaching to blame Foggy and let Matt off the hook, not because I don't think Foggy's guilty of anything or Matt's always in the wrong. It seemed to me to be an attempt to absolve Matt of responsibility for all of the stuff that went down related to his outing and paint him as a victim rather than a person whose choices (made with agency and knowing full well what might happen at the time) caught up with him.
I agree with the above anons that really it's all about balancing both of them as characters who collectively together often make fucked up choices, including things like faking Foggy's death later on in Waid's run or the things that happened with relation to Milla. I'm not completing in the camp of either of them.